Black and White

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Untrue.

Your personal observations may be correct at the same time the other information is correct. Therefore, no contradiction.

In other words, I'm perfectly willing to believe Spelly has seen everything she claims to have seen. I just don't think it matters. Representative samples, and stuff.

 

Just as it is no secret that gypsies are thieves, jews are running a world conspiracy with the goal of global domination or that all Irish are drunks. I think we have here just seen a perfect example that racism is live and kicking and things need to be done.

The US is an extremely divided country, just the fact that even to this day a black and a white person having a relationship on TV is seen as something controversial the networks barely dares to show. That this is probably a mirror of how it is in the normal world makes it even sadder. The two times I visited the US I was shocked just how segretated everything was. I spent six weeks in North Carolina (the south I know but still) and you could drive for hours and not see a black person but if you then took a left turn you coudl drive for hours again and not see a white person. There still seems to be a whole lot of tension between dark and light skins.

 

Which is really quite sad and ridiculous. After years and years, have we still not realized that we are all the same? Britain has made really good progress on front, there is little, if any, kind of segregation here. All cultures and races mix without problems (relatively...)

 

Joa -- I am no racist -- as I made clear above in many posts -- there are many that abuse the system, not all. And I also pointed out that I have many black friends, who happen to agree with me on this issue. You confuse racism with a lack of sympathy -- but if you had used the latter term, you'd be right on.

AMaster -- Most of our society revolves around perception. Perception is intrinsically intertwined with opinion. I don't know of any people who check the stats first, to determine how they will feel about a subject -- until now. If you really believe what you're saying, then you must have a difficult time of it dealing with peers.

 

If you asked Michael Richards, Don Imus, or Dog the Bounty Hunter, you'd get the same answer.

I'm not saying you are a racist, Spelly (nor would any of your posts make me conclude that you are one). It's just that racists generally don't think of themselves as such.

Barmy, one of us must be very drunk, because I had to read that three times before I figured out what you're saying. And I haven't been drinking.

 

Sorry, changed it a little bit. I made a few spelling mistakes. It's what happens when you can't be arsed to read a post before you submit it .

 

Affirmative Action

Prejudice is alive and well all over the world and is not just limited to Black vs White.

Here is a link to a summary of Affirmative Action with further links:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/affirmative1.html

Affirmative Action in the USA hasn't solved the Black, Indian, Chicano problem. But 45 years is a short time even in the history of the USA. I also contend that Bureaucracy perpetuates itself and also breeds like the wires in back of my computer.

A long life does not automatically bring wisdom or for that matter great experience. Education does not automatically bring wisdom or experience. What is printed in books is not necessarily true. Logic can be based on a false premise. Statistics are great if I want to set up a business or have an intellectual, formal debate.

Having said the above I admit that quoting statistics to me will probably cause my mind to go blank and shut down or just annoy me My personal experiences have a large influence on my personal choices including for whom and what I vote.

Experience may not be the best teacher but it is the one we tend most to heed. Since this is primarily a game board I will use this example: Statistics prove that game X is played by more people than game Y. So based on statistics I should run out and buy game X. But do I? No. I check what others think of the game. I ask here or in FAI what people think of the game. I base my decision on what game to buy based on my experiences and the experiences of those who like the same type of games that I like. Sure it isn't 100% accurate but it works for me.

Both statistics and experience have their place and are valuable but no one is going to get me like cauliflower just because 7 out of 10 people like it.

dmc's original post asks about Affirmative Action and the fact is that Affirmative Action has not worked the way it was originally intended to work. Although why we think we can solve a problem older than Methuselah in 45 years I do not understand.

 

Well said, Nakia.

 

The USA has a history?

 

I understand what you're saying, Nakia, and for the most part I agree with it. But:

The only problem with that approach is that statistics are the only valid basis for making decisions which are actually reflective of reality. For example, I have an aunt who was bitten by a dog when she was a child, and so she is terrified of dogs. Her experience tells her that dogs are dangerous. So if she were to rely solely on her experience, she would push for banning dogs as pets. And I doubt that most people would agree with that. (I know, this is getting off topic (which, ironically enough, was started from another off-topic discussion). Maybe another thread needs to be started.)

@Barmy:

 

But that's where our intellect plays a role. Her experience may tell her that a certain breed of dog is dangerous -- but she may not leap to the idea that all dogs are dangerous. I think, we as humans, blend experience with intellect and common sense -- that's what makes us who we are. There is certainly a place for facts -- but we are not robots or machines -- opinion and perception are a very real part of all of us.

 

You're missing the point. Just because a golden retriever bites someone doesn't mean that golden retrievers are dangerous. Just because a dog on a chain bites someone doesn't mean that dogs on chains are dangerous. More simply put, how many black people who are abusing welfare have you actually met? Whatever the number, it is utterly insignificant when extrapolated against the total number of black people who have received welfare. Your experience in dealing with .00000000001% of a group of people has a 99.99999999% margin for error. To call such a small sample statistically insignificant would actually give it too much credit. Your experience isn't just statistically insignificant; it's completely irrelevant.

 

I've started a new thread so this topic doesn't get derailed.

Well, it appears Nakia started one as well, so we'll go with hers:

http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?p=617250&posted=1#post617250

 

Depends. No to affirmative action that lowers educational requirements. Perhaps, however, a yes to some affirmative action in urban development.

The problem with that is the fact that while in theory, they need to prove you reject them because of race. In fact, they'll have it proven unless you give some concrete grounds which will stand and hold their own under concentrated attorney fire.

I confirm. In the mind of many people, some forms of racism exist. Apart from those who see some races as superior and some as inferior, there are also those who are simply xenophobic, isolating, don't want to mingle, even if they don't dabble with superiority and inferiority.

In so far as the poverty is a hereditary circumstance starting from slavery some two hundred years ago, then yes, the society owes something to them. However, in so far as it is a voluntary rejection of educational and other chances, well... There are still some obligations, but that's mostly education. One of the protagonists of 19th century movements said there could be no liberalism without education... And I agree. With the people sufficiently educated, liberalism would be quite a fair game. It won't be a fair game with big educational differences as they exist now.

Well, yeah, from the point of view of the boss definitely so. From the point of view of the society and the state generally yes, as well, although something could be done to help the poor in getting a better education. But I say poor, not black, and some honest chance - not freebie points. Even cash for books is fine, but freebie recruitment points are not.

Yeah, that's my chief worry.

To hell with the diversity PR. We do owe something to the poor. We do owe something to the cultures we had oppressed. But the whole diversity propaganda is overdone.

I'd say, give the chance to those who want it. Educate them enough so they know if they want it. That's justice. If they don't take it, well, justice was served. If you want, you can give way to mercy and on that basis, help them. Even on the level of mercy rather than justice, I still say no freebies unless they serve a purpose or are life-savers (well, life or health or extreme poverty). People should contribute to the society.

 

Let's extrapolate this to pit bulls. You're correct if one person is bitten by a pit bull, it doesn't mean that the breed is dangerous. However, If one person meets another person that's experienced that, and then another and then another.....and then reads news articles on it, that perception will surely change. People's opinions are rarely based on one experience or event. As you age in life, it's compiled over a variety of experiences, conversations, etc., which ultimately comprises opinion.

As far as blacks abusing welfare -- if you had read my previous posts in the other thread, I made mention that whites do the same. However, in my experience (which helps to form my opinion), I have met many who have abused the system and willingly joked about it. If you think that doesn't have an effect on forming a person's opinion on something, then you are deluded. We are made up of a blend of fact and experience -- to suggest that experience is irrelevant is absurd.

 

Addressed in the new thread.

 

Err.... are we talking about the same Britain here?

It really depends on how relative we're talking...

Seriously, while I will agree that Britain is less overtly racist than many, many countries I've been to (no, I'm not going to make a list and offend everyone ), it's no picnic either. Quite a few people on the streets are overtly racist, and many more have a more subtle kind of racism. I've experienced both a disturbing number of times (the last time 2 days ago), and reading Splunge's comment I am forced to agree: many racist people (especially the more subtle variety) genuinely believe they are not racist when they start ranting about "those pakis" or "those towelheads", spiced with a healthy dose of swearing and an overdose of broad and sweeping (and usually inaccurate) generalisations.

That's what worries me most - if people carry on being racist while at the same time having convinced themselves that racism is dead and gone, that undercurrent of more subtle racism will never go away.

 

Splunge:

Does that apply to blacks and Asians as well, or only whites?

 

Well, Scotland is still a bit dodgy, but in England things are OK now. Have you been to London recently? It's the same round my area too, people of all creeds and races mixing without trouble. No 'Asians only' or whatever areas. I think we're pretty accepting as a country, especially compared with the rest of the world. Go places like Spain and Italy and you'll see quite open racism, and very few people who aren't white.

 

well, there are a minimum of 20 possible races on the census form however you would have to list jewish as "some other race" as it doesn't have its own listing