Evil Cleric - should I?

Remove all ads!

Hi all!

I'm FINALLY getting around to playing IWD and HoW, since I'm on an IE roll after playing PS:T.

I'm putting together a party that is everything for variety. And I'm thinking to make a multi-class evil cleric - mage as one of 6:

- Paladin
- Bard
- MC Fighter - Druid
- MC Good Ranger - Cleric
- MC Fighter - Thief
- MC Evil Mage - Cleric

Hoping if I play on HoF mode and the hardest setting, that there will be enough XP to go around to max all of them out by the end....

The thing is, I've read on these forums that all the fun evil-only cleric spells don't work. Is that right? Or is something else ruining the evil-priest experience?

Thanks!

 

The problem with most evil cleric spells is that they are touch spell. If you cast such a spell the cleric will walk so close to the victim that it turns around and start the long casting animation in front of the attacking enemy.
But since you'll have mirror image and stoneskin there's a chance for success.

 

Those spells work, but they are not that great. Casting times are too long, and as kmonster stated, once you start casting the monster will lock into you since you will be the nearest target. (in touch range) One hit and the spell is wastedi though with stoneskin and mirror image, it may work. I think cleric/mage is the best combo for this purpose. Worst part is, these spells still allow saving throws, which means any HoF monster can resist them easily. Only lvl 7 spell Destruction is nice as it forces a save vs death at -4. With other saving throw lowering spells, it has a bigger chance of working than anything else, and when it works, it blasts the unfourtunate victim right out of existence!

Since you already have a good cleric to raise/ressurect dead members, I say go for it. It might be an interesting diversion.

 

The issue I had is that although you get some low level heal spells, all the higher level spells are harm, but with your good cleric, you're covered.

 

Hmm all touch spells. I was hoping I could use him for ranged bombardment (especially with the destruction spell). May not be as fun as anticipated...

Thanks for the tips on buffing with stoneskin and mirror image! Will this mean less slots for direct damage mage spells? I was hoping that the Bard would take most of the buffing spells, and the evil guy would mainly take the artillery spells.

--

Thought some more on this. So perhaps the roles need to be reversed?

The battle starts with the Bard firing off area of effect rounds, while the cleric-mage buffs himself. When the enemy approaches, the Bard switches to party buffing spells and the bard song, while the evil cleric-mage gets his hands all over the enemy. He would be upfront then, or close by, while the Bard would be at the back.

This would mean that the evil one would get first crack at stoneskin and mirror image scrolls rather than the Bard. I hope there are extras to go around...

Would this work?
Thanks!

--

I was thinking that I could make this twisted character an evil gnome illusionist / cleric. But... Would that mean that he couldn't wear the elven armor that is mage friendly? Can half-elven mages wear that armor?

Thanks!

 

Any character who can wear chain can wear elven chain too. Clerics can wear chain.
Elven chain is great for bards, but for mages robes are just as good.

 

I started my party out last weekend.

First time playing IWD - on HoF mode and insane difficulty (how suitably named ).

Rather a bit of challenge Baldur's Gate II and Torment, this certainly is not. But something different is good for a change.

However, I've never had so much trouble hitting beetles, goblins, and orcs. Made it past the prologue by last night (doing everything). The orc cave with 4 ogres and tons of orcs was tough. If I couldn't back out of the cave and rest mid-battle, it would have been impossible.

The evil cleric-mage Ravel Mordred (I know, not very original), started each battle with a few grease spells to slow down the onslaught, while my fighter druid "Jalinda Rahuli" cast a couple entangles to stop them.

My Ranger - Cleric "Gerod Wintel " at the same time casts a curse spell to reduce the enemies saving throws and chances to hit. In the meantime my Paladin "Errol Derbun" is shooting the closest enemy with a crossbow, as my gnome fighter-thief "Fernid Snivol" shoots with his composite longbow.

The neutral evil Bard "Tirra Suleni" stays at the back and sings to everyone else, while reveling in the spectacle.

When the spells are done, the non-bard spellcasters use their bows and slings. If an enemy makes it through the greasy flora, the party switches to melee weapons.

Strangely, the evil cleric spends most of his time healing the other party members that have better melee skills. But if the party is ganging up on an enemy that made it past the slimey vines, and his healing skills aren't needed, he walks up and casts a cause wounds spell. Since he can wear chainmail and has 18 dexterity, the enemy's attack almost always misses, and he successfully casts. The enemy's attention is diverted while others whack on the enemy unmolested. Evil cleric then runs away until the enemy returns attention to the meleers. And then it repeats.

Nice thing, he will almost ALWAYS do damage. And it is two damage rolls (not sure why that is). Whereas the meleers spent most of the their turns missing.

The evil Bard just keeps singing through the whole thing.

By the end of yesterday, they were effective enough to take out maybe 3 orcs, before the spells timed out and they finished, or got rushed by the remaining crowd, and had to retreat and exit, to rest and then return. Is this normal at this difficulty level, or are there some tactics I may be overlooking?

A bit tedious, but satisfying seeing the characters grow so fast. It was fun, just the same! We'll see if doesn't start getting too repetitive

Here they are after the avalanche. As you can probably tell, I spent a good time Saturday rolling their stats (click-click-click.....). The fighter/druid stats were the most difficult because of minimum values on the apparently useless INT and CHA stats.

(STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA)

Errol Durbin Level 5 LG Human Paladin (18/95,18,18,3,14,17)
Crossbows ++, Large Swords ++, Flails +

Gerod Wintel Level 5/4 CG Half-Elven MC Cleric/Ranger (18/92,18,18,5,18,5)
Racial Enemy: Cadaverous Undead
Bows ++, Hammers ++, Halberds+

Fernid Snivol Level 4/5 CG Gnomish MC Fighter/Thief (18/00,18,18,12,2,12)
70% Open Locks, 40% Move Silently, 75% Find Traps, 25% Pick Pockets
Sneak Attack 2D6
Bows +++, Small Swords ++

Jalinda Rahuli Level 4/5 TN Half-Elven MC Fighter/Druid (18/62,18,18,7,18,15)
Missile Weapons +++, Large Swords ++

Ravel Mordred Level 5/4 LE Half-Elven MC Cleric/Mage (18,18,17,18,18,3)
Missile Weapons +, Daggers +, Quarter Staves +

Tirra Suleni Level 6 NE Half-Elven Bard (18,18,16,18,3,18)
Bows +, Axes +, Maces +

She mainly sings, because her companions are such bad shots, and need a lot of help Most of them seem to only hit if their modified rolls are over 20 or so. With their weapon proficiences and DEX-based missile adjustments, each hits on average only maybe 20% of the time (or on average one hit total per round). Adding another +1 to the hit modifier increases each chance to hit by 5%, which means, probably, one more hit on average every 4 rounds with 5 other characters. If Tirra were to shoot herself, the chance of an extra hit per round would seem to be about 15%. Even after 4 rounds, this is about on average 60%. So I think at lower levels it's best to keep her singing. Is this right?

At higher character levels when their chances to hit are much better, I think her singing for to hit bonuses would be less valuable than her shooting, when she can hit 25% of the time or better. Does that sound right to you? The +1 damage bonus seems totally negligible on HoF / insane difficulty when the enemy HPs are so high.

She has no spells now, but I'm thinking of giving her all the AoE casting level dependent spell scrolls, since her casting level will go up faster than the cleric/mage (assuming the bard's level = casting level). Is this right, or is the bard's casting level really bard level-2, or something?

PS, I'm thinking of switching around the weapon specializations, if I get stuck... I found a +1 morning star, after I had made that lollygaggin Bard the mace specialist... I think I should have her only use 2 handed weapons since she can't wear a shield anyways. But maybe not if there's some special bard items to use in her shield slot?

Also, maybe it would better to give longsword to my thief-fighter since he can still backstab/sneak attack with it as well as with a shortsword, yet get more damage?

 

A paladin who stays in the same party with evil characters...

 

Well, I thought IWD was a hack and slash game, NOT really a roleplaying game. Right?

 

Wrong. (unless you've the opinion that no crpg (maybe except PST) is a rpg or that's impossible to roleplay more than 1 character)

But you do your best to turn it into the hack and slash you like.
You obviously use some game modifications, so you won't get the original HOF experience either. Personally I think I got the best first time experience by playing the game unmodified in normal mode, but this way you won't get the hack and slash you want.

To answer your questions:
- the level 1 bard songs yields even more support when your characters level up and get more attacks per round, but I prefer the higher level songs, so using a bow won't improve much.
- bard level = casting level
- there's a special bard item for the shield slot, but I never used it. It's only worth considering if you don't want to use your bow.
- longsword is in fact the best thief weapon

 

Nope. Is rpg, is using rpg rules, but is more combat oriented.
And I must admit that you using the most horrible powergaming party I've ever seen. Reducing stats to 3 to improve others is not how this game was meant to be played. I never reduce any attribute below 9. If you get all characters with full Con and Str, where's the fun of the game?
Not to mention the fact that you are probably using some mods that simply put, ruin the game. Cleric using bow or halberds? That's not AD&D and certainly is not a true IWD game.
I'm sorry to tell you, but you are cheating.
HoF is the hardest setting. You must keep your configuration on HoF to play it like that. Otherwise is a normal game on insane difficulty.

 

Thanks for the answers, kmonster!

So, perhaps my F/T should specialize in longswords rather than shortswords? I wanted to get maximum weapon type coverage across my party. That would mean sacrificing specialization in shortswords. Are there no good shortswords in this game that are better than the best 3 longswords. I have the Paladin specializing in longswords for the Paladin only magic longsword? I have the F/D specializing in longswords for the improvement to combat when shapeshifting as a Polar Bear.

Here's my guiding reasoning behind playing the game in this decidely non-roleplaying way.

1) I don't have the time and desire to play this game more than once. I have enough other unplayed games to play. This may change after a play through (very unlikely), or some time in the far future.
2) I want to experience as much as the game has to offer in one play through. That means to me, in something as shallow as a hack and slash RPG, playing all character classes, alignments, spells, abilities, and to the maximum character levels possible.
3) The game provides little alignment based "role" gameplay that has a significant effect on game outcomes (besides item and spell choices).

From what I've read, character alignment and evil/good/neutral dialogue choices have no effect on one another in this game, plus there are no party component restrictions on alignment, and few or none alignment specific quests. Without these things, the "role" part of roleplaying is VERY shallow, in my mind.

Why try to turn this game into something it's not? There's a lot better games out there for a deep "role" playing experience. The general opinion is that IWD is best played as a hack and slash game. But if one wants to play by one's own rules, rather than what's imposed by the game, go ahead, whatever floats your boat.

But, please do not try to impose your own personal gameplaying style on others. What's fun for you, may not be fun, or appropriate for others.

I admit, I installed the G3 tweak pack. It claims to fix some actual bugs, and certainly removed some multi-class item restrictions. If there's a way to back out the multi-class weapon so called restriction "cheats", then I can do that. But I don't want to reinstall and start over from the beginning.

EDIT: BTW, I think it's stupid to put stat limits and other unnatural restrictions on yourself when playing on the hardest possible settings with level 1 characters, unless you're a masochist of the absolute most horrible sort (which I am far from)

 

You claim that you want to enjoy the game, but at the same time you play it like Diablo. Play by the AD&D rules or don't play it at all. You are not actually experiencing what the game offers you are abusing it. The fun part in IWD is knowing that you must also plan your party on every detail including what weapons they can use and what they can't. Imposing rules on yourself? Nope. Is not masochistic, I did it before. It is in perfect accordance with 2E. Putting stats below 8 is not allowed in a PnP game.
So the game doesn't impose you to reduce your stats to 3. You do that. But you go further than that. You install weapons for all and claim to play the same game as everyone else did. I'm sorry, but compared to other people playing the game, you are cheating.

[Warning pending - dmc]

 

I've played many PnP games where stats at 3 were rolled and allowed, as they are in this game.

I did not install weapons for all (just MC fighter clerics or druids). And if you bothered to read my post you can see that I am looking for a way to back out those changes.

And I never made the claim to play the same game as everyone else did.

Finally, please stop lying about me and accusing me of cheating, or I will have to report you.

 

So I wonder if I can back out the MC fighter- druid and -cleric component from the G3 IWD Tweak pack. And then use Dalemaster to correct weapon proficiences to agree with the rules?

EDIT: BG 3 -> IWD (wishful thinking, I guess )

Also, I forgot to mention, that last night in Pass after the Avalanche, I tried out my first available summons - Animate Dead.

Before, I could just barely survive the first battle with goblins, using healing spells, and every trickin the book. After casting the summon, 1 each from each of my clerics, all the battles become completely not scary, with summons left over to spare. None of my characters are hurt, at all.

What's up with the HUGE balance swing from almost unplayable to a walk in the park?

Another question, why is sleeping in the pass almost always a death sentence? 7 goblins or so appear 5/6 of the time... I'm forced to save and reload if that happens....

 

Your F/T is already specialized in short swords, there's no need to change it.
Longswords do a little more damage than short swords with the same enchantment, but the little difference doesn't really matter if you consider all the strength, spell and other bonuses you can get.
Keep in mind that most magic weapons are random, so it's impossible to tell which weapon choices will be the best for your game. But most of the time the best short sword will probably be better than second best longsword and you'll definitely find a short sword able to hurt all the monsters which require magical weapons to take damage.


About the playing style:

There's only one first run and I also try the get the best out of it, I can hardly ever make myself do a second. Therefore I also spent a lot of time elaborating my party and wanted to experience as much as possible.
I just don't think playing HoF mode yields the best experience, the game was designed and playtested for normal difficulty, not for HoF mode, which is rather an additional challenge for replays with parties who already finished normal mode. The combat is slower but not always harder since you have access to high level priest spells far earlier, the balance is gone. The grown combat part dwarves the adventuring part and frequent reloading destroys the roleplaying tension.

For me normal mode was the best, but there are other players who played HoF mode the first time with a standard party and enjoyed it a lot. The plot stays the same after all.
Your weapon prof mod or the min-maxed statistics won't harm your gaming experience, it will just make the game a little easier. Unlike redrake I see no reason to enforce AD&D rules from elsewhere for your game if you don't want to.


Why do you judge the game with words like "shallow" and "hack and slash" and tell there's a lot better games out there for a deep "role" playing experience if you never played the game before ?
I got far more roleplaying feeling in IWD than in BG2 for example.


You have some choices when doing your quests, you probably just didn't realize it. I'll tell you some from the prologue you've played already, there are more good/evil choices you'll have later which do matter more, but I don't want to spoil you.

- you can bring the bottle of wine to old Ned or you can convince him to stop drinking all day if you have the right stats.
- you can kill the wolf in the house or charm it so it leaves peacefully.
- you can kill the goblins to get the fish back for the boy, you can give him another one (which you could have gained when having the right character having the right dialog with a local) instead or you could sell it for a lot of money
- you don't have to clear the cave for solving the missing caravan quest, you can just have have a character sneak around until he detects the missing goods to get the same quest XP.
- you can deliver the broken sword or tell the guy to run away and leave all his possessions behind instead, a bard offers even more options in this quest (and in others later). This has an effect later in the game and even in HoW.
- in Kuldahar pass you can leave the ogre alone with his headache, kill him, have your druid offer a cure or ask someone in Kuldahar to solve this

- IWD does have reputation, and paladins and rangers can become fallen.
- Having a paladin in the party takes away some beneficial options once since he'll look right through the disguise and start combat, but there are some beneficial dialogue options later only paladins get

In general there's a lot of content in IWD and many interesting background which you can either realize or just run over if you only want hack and slash.
There's nothing wrong if you want to play this way, but please don't call this game shallow since it isn't.

 

Thanks for the advice.

OK, I may have been overly critical of the roleplaying aspects. Yes, I recognize that evil actions can cause paladins and rangers to fall. Unlawful actions can also affect your reputation in town. And that there are both evil and good and lawful and chatoic ways to handle quests.

But, dialog and action choices don't affect the players alignment, right? That's what I meant by shallow. In Torment, BG I and II, NWN, NWN 2 these kinds of choices do affect the alignment of the player character, as well as affecting the behavior of NPC companions. I find that deeper.

I don't just hack and slash. I play through all the quests, usually as lawful good, not just kill everyone. I love a lot of background content. If there's any indication, Torment is probably my favorite RPG yet. Don't want you to get the wrong impression.

Now, about balance. Is the rest of the game now going to become a cakewalk? That would be terribly boring. If so, then I'd rather find out as early as possible and restart and play on normal, if that's the most balanced way to play. I'll sacrifice all the high level spells and abilities I suppose. And MC characters will be less viable, probably. Should I redesign some of my MC characters as dual classed? But I do want to have as many classes and races and alignments in my party as possible. Hate to give up the high level abilities and spells though, as they can be the most fun....

Advice appreciated!

 

You either didn't play BG and BG2 or did listen more to marketing and fan declarations than to facts. There's absolutely no way to change your alignment in BG1 and in BG2 there's only a test where you have to act like the stupid stereotype hero or become punished with neutral evil alignment. Nothing else will affect your alignment. You can blackmail for ransom, lie, steal, kill innocent good guys at will and still be lawful good.

In PST your alignment changes according to your actions, but what does it effect except the ability to use a few items ? It's just a feedback (your actions are judged by the game developers) which shouldn't change your playing style (although some do even powergame for alignment), nothing else. For what I've played NWN before getting bored it shouldn't be too different.

The difference to the other games you mentioned is that you play a party in IWD, not a single character. You create 6 different adventurers with different strengths and weaknesses which complement one another in a party which is going to write history. You have total freedom about your characters, you are responsible for their background and how they develop.
In games like BG2 you don't have this freedom, in a normal game you can create only one character and for the rest of the party you are limited to a few pregenerated characters, no matter if you like them or not. You play one character and babysit up to 5 others with characteristics more or less enforced by the program who rarely trigger a scripted event.
I don't know why playing a party is considered shallow but playing 1 character to 100 percent and 5 to 90 percent is considered deep.

About the balance:
Some battles will be harder and some will be easier, but all will be slower. The balance suffers, mages have empty spell levels since they don't find the corresponding scrolls fast enough, direct damage spells and your warriors' combat power are nearly useless in comparison to low level priest summons.
Overall I think that HoF mode is still considerably harder than normal mode.

 

By deep, I mean consequences from your actions that change the behavior of NPCs.

I played both BG I and II. Doing something your companions disagree with because of changing reputation, will annoy them, and they may even leave your party. In BG II, some of the companions don't like each other because of alignment, and may fight each other.

You're right in that the player's alignment doesn't seem to have any direct effect on NPCs in PST. It doesn't even affect the ending, which was a big disappointment to me. But, companions have morale variables, that are affected by what you do. Dakkon's abilities are influenced by his morale.

Since you haven't played NWN and 2, much, you should know that your actions CAN change your alignment (which is even deeper than the reputation shifts in BG/IWD) and your alignment affects how the NPCs interact with you, which I find deeper than PST still.

BTW, in BG II, and perhaps BG I too, you CAN create your entire party. You just have to play in multi-player mode.

Regarding balance. Well, last night the undead summoning trick didn't work so well in the small mill rooms in the pass. The challenge had returned. So I guess I'll keep going as is, for now ...