Vegan girl

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I read the link drew & nowhere did it say they were even fined let alone shutdown at the link you have posted. Is there maybe some other link you are thinking of?

They aren't shutdown as of now, as their website clearly shows :http://www.agriprocessor.com/agriprocessors_postville_home/kosher_slaughtering_plant.php
HOWEVER they have been up to no good : http://projectusa.org/library/postville/postville.php

All of this is totally off-topic of course

 

@martaug, the shutdown was temporary (just a day or 2 if I remember correctly). When Temple Grandin toured the facility on June 27th (3 weeks later), they had since cleaned up their act, and subsequently passed an audit of its then-current procedures (which they had changed after the video's release) by several private and government agencies and resumed full production.

Court proceedings regarding the incident are still under way.

 

Did you follow the second link i posted, they have apperently been in the illegal immigrant business.

 

I already knew about that and, frankly, it was no surprise when I initially heard about it back in May. They also admitted discharging untreated sewage into the Postville system, in violation of Federal and Iowa State law and paid a $600,000 fine for violating waste-water regulation on August 31, 2006. Pardon my cynicism, but slaughter houses bring in illegals as cheap labor so often that you would think it was part of some sort of industry-wide SOP.

 

No, I haven't, and frankly I don't want to. If there is any undue cruelty there, it's not on my head.

Still think bullets are an undue hassle? Get someone competent with the gun and the animal where they can't get away, one bullet finished the job with a vastly greater efficiency. Dead cows don't kick at the workers...

Those in smaller areas have that option. Many also might even know the farmer and can verify what the cows are fed and how they are treated. Spare me the horrors of the mass production of such meats. It's things like that which derail anything that we would otherwise learn from such conversation.

So can we get tot he content and not the horror stories. When the "activists" get off on such things, I really crave Veal Cutlet (although, after your Debeaking comments, Chicken McNuggets become tempting too).

 

Gnarff, industry practice isn't a horror story. It's industry practice. I staunchly refuse to debate the ethics angle with you and respect your desire to remain ignorant to industry practices, but I will step in and correct you when you say things that aren't true. Frankly, Gnarff, it isn't my job to walk you through industry practices on feedlots, in slaughterhouses, in battery cages, or in the veal industry. If you wish to learn about it, knock yourself out. The information is out there, but if you choose to remain ignorant to the hows and whys of these industries, I don't want to see you making absurd assertions about how all of the often easily corroborated claims from animal rights activists are untrue. Sometimes activists do make incorrect claims, but if you can be bothered to check their sources, you'll find out that most claims from activists come straight from industry documents about general industry practices. It isn't like the information is classified, after all.

 

I continue hearing about inhumane treatment of animals that are about to be eaten and can't help but think... "don't you people have more constructive things to do with your time." I mean, really, who cares what happens to the animals about to be eaten. I'm all for trying to make the "being eaten" process as painless as possible for the "eatee" but we're spending waaay too much time and effort on trying to positively make the process of being eaten pain free and without any emotional hardship on the food.

And Drew, sorry of being politically incorrect here, but most vegans I've met are nutcases (not all, and I don't consider you a nutcase -- hardcase maybe, but not nutcase). Vegan lifestyle is fine and dandy for adults whose bones and internal organs are fully developed, but it takes some serious dedication and work to ensure growing children get all the calcium and other nutrients they need to grow healthy -- most of the nutcases don't put that kind of time and effort into it. Seriously -- why would an adult prevent their child from having milk? It's just plain insane to prevent your own child from having the single, best item for proper development of bones. Fine, kids can be vegetarians, but give them their 4-5 serving of dairy each day to ensure healthy bones. IMO it's flat out stupid of a parent not to give a child dairy products (with very rare exceptions).

 

Lactose intolerance? It's a lot more common than you think. Metrics don't bear out your idea that most vegans are nutcases that don't put in the necessary time or effort to make sure that they and their children are well nourished. The average American vegan takes in the same amount of calcium as the average American. Our rates of Anemia are the same, as well. Good data about bone ailments is admittedly hard to come by (since vegans comprise just under 1% of the population, and many of them don't become vegan until later in life), but what data we do have points to vegans having similar rates of bone ailments, as well. As I mentioned, this article is about one kid, not thousands.

Please. For starters, soymilk already has all the nutrients (more, actually) than are found in milk. Go grab a half gallon of silk the next time you go to a grocery store and compare the label to the milk. Calcium and vitamin D are available from multiple sources*. You also somehow forget that many people can't drink milk. 15-25% of Caucasians are lactose intolerant, as are 90-95% of Asians, 70% of Africans, 50-55% of Mexicans, 60% of Jews, and close to 95% of Native Americans. These people are already getting their calcium and vitamin D from somewhere else and, frankly, it isn't hard.

* Like arugulla. A 25 calorie serving provides 16% of your calcium needs, 47% of your vitamin A, 8% of your iron, and 25% of your vitamin C.

 

actually drew being lactose intolerent doesn't mean you can't drink milk. A lot of people that are LI can process up to 8oz. of milk without problems but it varies from person to person. LI is a self fulfilling condition, in that the primary cause is being raised in a non-dairy enviroment. The secondary & genetic causes are smaller reasons. You grow up not drinking milk, you can't drink milk. Doesn't explain the native americans though, most of the cherokees i know love ice cream & eat cereal so i wonder if it's a tribal thing?

And drew, if it is that easy to get all the vitamins needed how did she get in such bad shape if they weren't nutjobs? I know you don't want to admit that any vegans are but just like all groups you have a few wacko members.

P.S. forgot check on those asian figures. aren't mongols considered asian? i know they consume massive quantities of goats milk. Saw it on discovery channel

 

Eight ounces of milk doesn't even come close to fulfilling your daily needs for calcium or vitamin D. People who are lactose intolerant are either not going to get in enough calcium and vitamin D, get it from other sources, or constantly have the ****s.

It's also easy to avoid developing type 2 diabetes, high cholesterol, and obesity. Are the people developing these lifestyle-based disorders all nut-jobs? Of course not!

I readily and happily concede that there are plenty of vegans out there worthy of that epithet, just as there are plenty of nut-jobs out there who believe the Bush administration staged 911, we faked the moon landing, LBJ killed Kennedy, or that aliens just happened to crash land on a secret military base in Nevada. Stupidity or ignorance are not the same thing as insanity, so there is no way to be sure from this article if these folks are really "nut-jobs" or if they just made a really rare and stupid nutritional mistake out of ignorance or foolishness. We simply don't have enough information to make such an assessment of these particular people.

 

Drew, just 8oz of milk provides 25% vitamin D & 30% calcium of your daily requirements. This cuts down what you have to get from other sources.

 

Yeah, martaug, I know that, but that still leaves 70-75% and assumes that the lactose intolerant individual is willing to deal with the more or less constant minor bowel trouble that they get from milk consumption. Most aren't, and would rather get their calcium and D vitamins from other alternatives like rice milk or soy milk, leafy greens like arugula, calcium rich nuts like almonds, or a multi-vitamin if at all possible.

 

I'm willing to believe that the majority of vegans are not nut jobs, but I ask you to remember that the nutjobs gather more attention than the regular people. In fact, we probably wouldn't know that the normal ones were vegans if they didn't tell you.

This story serves as a warning of the dangers of a poorly executed vegan diet, but also paints the parents as either bufoons or nut jobs. It does a disservice to the vegan community by driving home their differences. It's almost as bad as PETA in that regard. It does not solve problems, only creates them. Both sides are prone to problems in their diet without due vigilance, and it does not address what we ought to be eating.

 

There are methods of reducing lactose levels of dairy products these days and lessening their impact on lactose intolerants. HYLA(hydrolysed lactose) products are basically safe game for everyone with lactose intolerance.

 

Yes, but they are more expensive. Non-dairy methods are cheaper. There are also products on the market that can be taken to aid in the digestion of lactose, but you have to wait something in the area of half an hour before you can drink that chocolate milk or eat that ice cream. It's a lot easier and cheaper to just have a non-dairy equivalent instead, with no waiting necessary.

On a side note, none of those products help those with straight-up milk allergies (which are also quite common).

 

They are not very much more expensive around here, in fact some dairy products are HYLA by default and are not even available in other forms. A liter of milk costs about 1,10 euros while hyla milk costs 1,25. Not a very massive or even significant difference if you ask me.

 

morgoroth thats a meat product so by definition its more expensive & worse for you than a vegan solution. Have you not been listening to drew instruct you in the proper way to live in peace with the animals on the planet?

Sorry, my sarcasm meter had hit max & had to be relieved.

Drew, i'm glad you're happy being a vegan & enjoy a meat free lifestyle.I know(or at least i think) that you aren't intentionally trying to be sanctimonious but you are coming off that way.
I & many others ain't gonna do it, so quit preaching please. If god/higher power/nature didn't want us to eat animals they wouldn't be so tasty

My personal favorites are chickens & pre-chickens(eggs), i eat enough that i should have feathers!! Having been on plenty of farms i have wrung plenty of chicken necks & whacked off heads with a knife or hatchet.

Like Gnarf mention, shooting the cow or pig, as we did when i helped my grandfather as a pre-teen on his farm slaughtering his own meat animals it was quick & over in an instant. Until you help process a pig, you would be amazed at how little is wasted. The old saying is " the only thing we don't use is the squeel"

 

Here's something interesting...

http://ca.lifestyle.yahoo.com/food-...eenliving/healthnutrition--the_perfect_burger

It suggests that farm raised cattle that are fed grain, hay and grass taste better and are healthier than factory operations that the "nutjobs" bitch about. So much for progress...

And here's something else:

http://www.greenlivingonline.com/HealthNutrition/corn-is-making-us-fat/

It mentions High Fructose Corn Syrop, likely okay for vegetarians and Vegans is actuall a leading contributor to obesity!

You got that right!

 

I just have to butt in with one addition. While I can see myself cutting meat out of my diet (although it is farfetched and they seriously need to improve the taste and variation of the non animal based protein sources) I could never see myself cut milk or dairy products in general. I love milk, I drink about a litre a day and it is the best meal drink there is. It is refreshing, it is tasty and it is even healthy! Cheese is also very very very nice although not as essential as milk.

 

Putting words in my mouth again? Aside from the fact that Hyla milk isn't actually a meat product, I have never once stated that meat is bad for you...because it isn't. Meat is nutritious and can be (and often is) a beneficial part of your diet. It just isn't necessary. I have purposefully avoided the ethical side of this debate, and will continue to do so.

I have very purposely stuck to debating only the facts of this issue and avoided the ethical side of veganism, martaug, so I don't know where you get off accusing me of "preaching". You and Gnarff have both been intentionally taunting me and trying to draw me into some sort of ethical debate and I have refused the bait each and every time, yet I'm somehow being sanctimonious? Where?

Was it when I brought up the established fact that kids can be healthy on a vegan diet or was it when I argued that a 5 paragraph article that doesn't even name names doesn't provide enough information to pass judgment on the parents of that girl? All we know about them is that they were vegan, they are "prominent in the vegan community", and their daughter had a D vitamin deficiency. That really isn't enough information to come to the conclusion that they are sanctimonious nut-jobs too busy patting themselves on the back to recognize there was something wrong with their daughter.

You've known and crossed swords with me often enough to know that I always insist on reserving judgment in cases where there isn't enough information. The fact that the parents in this article just happened to be vegan had nothing to do with it. Had I enough information, I would have been suggesting we hang them upside down by their (likely weak and brittle due to a D vitamin deficiency) toe-nails right there with you! Martaug, I'm sure you and many others have had activists try to convince you that you are doing a "horrible thing" by eating meat, but I have made no such statement in this thread and take offense to your implying that I did.

My point about using an actual gun had nothing to do with ethics. My point is that it simply isn't going to happen. Aside from being more expensive, more messy, and less safe than using a bolt, it's also completely unnecessary. Done right, Halal slaughter or the bolt are both reasonably humane, so they don't need to be replaced by messier, more expensive, less safe alternatives.

There's also the issue of putting a loaded weapon into the hands of an unskilled worker making 8 bucks (or less!) an hour. Most slaughter houses process 300-400 heads of cattle an hour. That's a lot of bullets, and a lot of opportunities for something to go wrong. The inevitable higher insurance costs that come with keeping and firing loaded weapons in a slippery, bloody room* will be passed on to the consumer, and so will the cost of new bullets. The bolt works quite well when done correctly. Halal slaughter works quite well when done correctly. The problem isn't the method.

* I didn't use those terms for shock value or to be "sanctimonious". The simple fact is that any room where you slaughter 300-400 cows an hour is going to be slippery from all the blood. Adding some guy firing a loaded weapon that will make an even bigger mess than the bolt to the mix isn't really a good idea when a few minor tweaks to how the stunning is conducted is all that's really needed.