Vegan girl

That wasn't the impression I got from your earlier arguments, actually. It seemed to me that you were arguing that only vegetarians indoctrinate their children into their diet. I probably got that impression when you said this:

I must have misunderstood your meaning.

Agreed, except I never said it wouldn't have long term effects. In parenting, very nearly everything you say or do will have long term effects.

Those excuses aren't as "funny" as you think. If you don't believe me, go vegan for a week. Cold turkey. When you end up sick and spending most of your time on the ****ter due to the fact that your body lacks the proper enzymes for such a diet - and when you get sick again from switching back - you should understand first-hand where those "funny arguments" come from. As sick as going vegetarian or vegan with no adjustment period and then switching back cold turkey will make you feel, eating meat after spending years as a vegetarian will make you feel even sicker.

Regarding guilt, I think you're being unfair. I've given my children no guilt trips about their diet, and I have no intention of ever doing so. If my son were to come home reeking of Aus Jus at 15, I wouldn't say a damn thing about it. It's better than smoking, after all, and teenage rebellion is not only perfectly normal, but teenagers tend to stop rebelling when it doesn't have the desired effect. Sure, my kids may feel a little guilty if they fall off the wagon, but the only reason for that would be the simple fact that they don't like the idea of killing for food when it isn't necessary. I have not and never will use emotional ploys with my children where their diet is concerned. All I have done, and all I will do is present the facts.

 

In the military I had a few vegetarian weeks and never got sick or felt ill or even that much different. Granted I did eat milk so it was not a change to vegan diet and therefore is probably somewhat different but going on/off vegetarian from my personal expierence does not seem to cause much trouble.

 

Nope, I'll have to disagree with you guys on this. The effect of the peers override the effect of the parents in most cases. Some parental conditioning does however have long term effects: that which has taken place in utero, the mother's dietary habits, and even that of the grandmothers (severe malnutrition shows in later generations) and that which takes place within the first three years of the childs life. These indoctrinations do not however have as much effect on the child later years personal life as has been supposed by earlier traditions in psychology and psychiatry. Which is to say that in the later years of a person's life, the peers have more influence even on the person's dietary habits than the parents do...

Now this doesn't mean that there wouldn't be indoctrination. Just specifying this point. That this specific suffered from malnutrition was caused by the parent's lack of wisdom in their dietary habits. No arguments there. But if someone chooses later in life to become a vegan, it has little to do with how the parents had fed this person and a lot to do with what the peers think about what's appropriate to eat.

One can condition oneself to eat and even like just about anything that's not poisonous and ingest a lot of substances despite their toxicity. Especially in western and "modern" cultures is done mainly in peer groups as the first contact to these type of substances in tribal cultures might happen as a part of an rite of passage. Of course the remnants of these types of initiation rites still exist in western cultures as well. Lutheran christian confirmation as an example, after which you're entitled to take part in the holy communion and drink the communal wine (before that it's bread only).

As Britain still has poor policy for school dinners (no matter how hard Jamie Oliver would try and change it *enter sneer here*). This girl simply didn't have any choices. Can the parents be blamed for their stupidity? Well, they're the cause of this specific case and they have shown to be absolutely negligent concerning the child's nourishment. But they're not the sole cause. Shame on them, but it makes you wonder what kind of society and what kind of peers breed these kind of idiots.

 

I'm not so sure. I've known a good many vegetarians and vegans, and I've known them as people rather than as random activists. None that I have known have fit the stereotype. As a member of the vegan community myself, I often find myself wondering where these skinny, angry, intolerant vegans with no sense of humor spray painting fur coats and showing slaughter house pictures to young children are coming from. Though I'm constantly called on to answer to this stereotype as if I somehow fit it or am an exceedingly rare exception to the rule (wow, you aren't lazy and filthy like other mexicans...), I've never met a vegan that it fits. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure these people are out there, but don't confuse their volume with their numbers.

Not really. If your parents raised you in a religion that tells you that pre-marital sex is a horrible abomination leading to the fiery pits of hell, the odds are high that you will feel guilty when you first start having sex. This is but one example out of many. If you parent with too tight a grip, your child may end up doing a great many things he'll later regret in an effort to rebel. Too loose, and your child may become blind to the expectations and needs of others.

You know, most people think veganism is a bad idea and a ridiculous pursuit. You can rest assured that my decision to become vegan had nothing whatsoever to do with the opinions of my peers. To choose to be vegan is to choose to be an outsider, to invite tenseness in the office when you choose not to try Betty's barbecue or opt out of the monthly team builder at the local steak-house where not even the salad is vegetarian. You don't decide to become vegan because your buddy Steve thought it would be fun for a lark. Being vegan sucks, and anyone who becomes vegan just because his friends thought it'd be a good idea is an idiot.

My parents aren't vegetarian (in fact, my grandfather was a cattle buyer), but they were the ones who raised me to believe that everything I do can had a profound effect on those around me, and that I should always be mindful to those that my actions may unintentionally hurt. They taught me to always be mindful of those who cannot speak for themselves, that the only thing I should refuse to tolerate is intolerance. My parents are not vegetarian, but they planted the seed for it. I may have become vegan either way, but I was pre-conditioned by my own upbringing to reach the conclusion I did.

 

It's a matter of the squeaky wheel gets the attention, I guess, Drew. As you say, the vegans you know are not radicals, but no one notices them as vegans. The ones we notice are the ones who are loud, obnoxious, sanctimonious, and all those other terms we use for crazy folks.

It brings to mind Chev's thread with the raging feminist advocating that men be considered guilty until proven innocent. Does she speak for all feminists? I hope not! But when I think feminist, I think of people like her.

The media doesn't help, either. When do we ever hear about PETA (I know they're not all vegans, I'm just making a point here) except in an article that basically says "oh, those crazy animal lovers are at it again!"

That said, though, all of the vegans I have met (mostly at University) who identified themselves as such struck me as being fairly representative of the stereotype, and so that's how I see these people. I probably passed hundreds of non-obnoxious ones, though, without knowing it.

 

LKD, the attitudes of stereotypical vegans have been projected on me (not necessarily by you) several times in this thread. This gives me pause to wonder how many of the obnoxious, radical vegans people meet all the time actually, well, aren't. The simple fact that society has trained us to see vegans, feminists, or people of another race or culture a certain way can have a startling effect on how we interpret what they say and do, even when such stereotypes do not apply to the individual we are speaking to at that particular moment. There's a reason I don't let people know that I'm vegan until they already know me quite well. Experience has taught me that it's the only way I can get a fair shake.

 

It's the loudmouths that are the ones most likely to be heard. And when vegetarian or vegan diet are discussed, these people are what come to mind.

Why would they? Giving the bona fide lunatics a soapbox to rant on is cheap programming! And sometimes it's more entertaining than the crap they pay to produce. Maybe they could have a lunatic channel, I'm sure that it would be cheap to produce shows for these loonies and that would mean more profits...

 

Alright, the vegans have went to far now! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1099212/synopsis
There is a movie coming out about a vegetarian vampire!!! How did we get PC into the fantasy movie realm!?!?! Even supernatural blood-suckers aren't safe from the animal police!!!
(all of the above was written with tongue firmly in cheek) but still vegie vampires!!

 

At the risk of totally derailing the thread, there's always been a veggetarian vampire! Of course, perhaps he doesn't count because he's a BUNNY! Didn't anyone here ever read "Bunnicula" when they were little kids?

Ahem, back to the topic at hand of veganism.

Drew, it is for that same reason that I let people get to know me first as a functional member of society before I come out and tell them that I am a Mormon. I think in Western society we are all leary of those we consider to be extremists, especially extremists we feel might be trying to change us or our society. In the case of animal rights activists, as soon as they start engaging in illegal activity (destroying the legal property of others) I lose all respect for the people actually committing the crime, and I also lose a little respect and trust for their allies who may not have even condoned the crime.

In the case of vegans, I do not trust them in general because I fear the activists who will use either legal or illegal means to impede my ability to access meat. The activists' behaviour tarnishes my view of the community in general.

That's all for now, . . . .

 

Thanks. Aside from the fact that activists aren't actively trying to outlaw meat consumption and would never succeed even if they were, and that the majority of activists spend their time trying to get the government to enforce laws that are already on the books and lobbying chains like KFC and McDonalds to voluntarily purchase their food from sources that at least follow American cruelty standards, you choose to distrust an entire group of people based on the actions of a few of them. Classy.