Zeitgeist, 9/11 Coincidences, 7/7 Ripple Effect, etc.

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Thanks for pointing that out. In holland we call it 'drogreden' (drug-reason), meaning a fallacy.
But to be fair, it's hard to avoid fallacies when trying to convince someone.
I'm only interested in a constructive discussion, and of course I expected to encounter some walls of resistance. But the evidence is in my favour, so it's a downhill battle for me. I'm no expert by any means, but I'm not having a hard time arguing the rationalizations so far.
Anyway, i hope to have piqued your interest, perhaps you'll watch the vids?

 

I have seen the vids before. 2 times I think. It didn`t convince me though, but it did make me think, of course. The religion bit, I allready knew about, and I had seen most of the same stuff about 9/11 in other vids as well. But they don`t contain hard, solid, evidence though. Its speculation, and a few very convincing theories. But without evidence, they will remain a theory, for better or worse. But one is allways innocent untill PROVEN guilty.

But I do agree that alot of stuff mentioned in the vids, do put some cracks in official explanations etc.

 

Actually, I don't believe anything that any of you say. Are any of you actually experts in any of the matters being discussed? How many of you have conducted scientific experiments involving tonnes of jet fuel and large buildings?

But if I had to go with anyone, The Great Snook's logic seems infinitely more, well, logical.

The flaw, to me, in all this conspiracy stuff, is that it is based on the fundamental premise the someone like George W. Bush is more intelligent than everyone else, and that is something that seems very doubtful to me.

 

Although I do not buy these old conspiracy theories I find it kinda creepy that I and apparently many others wouldn't hold it above Bush administration to be a part of smoething like that. Thankfully they are incompetent as well as eeeeeeeevil.

 

Here you go, as you requested, a case study by experts.

notice the limited damage to core columns.
notice that the researchers aren't interested in conclusions about 9/11, just testing their simulation.

Conspiracies don't require much more than average intelligence. They've been at it for years, and are in fact quite slow in figuring out the equation.

 

wrong choice of words then. But you know that anything like a legitimate case study would be impossible. The government made it very clear they want nothing to do with that. They made it clear when they published the long awaited preposterous 9/11 commission report.

But the visualisation was detailed, made by experts, and appears to be impartial. So it's a useful addition to the evidence, irrespective of your opinion.
And saying I should shut up because i'm not an expert is not fair. It would be too easy for the CIA if they only had to look out for experts.

EDIT: NOT the wrong choice of words. I looked up case study in Wikipedia, and this visualization fits. It's a visualization of a case study. What more do you want, the article? Should I wrap it in pdf-tags? that's kinda dry reading if you ask me.

 

I did say I was done, but I saw this and wanted to comment on your word choice... As I would hardly call this poorly performed theater, IF it is indeed a conspiracy. Fooling the world (excempting a few stragglers like yourself), seems to be very well preformed theater. Other than that I'll just add that it's a fun thread to read, even if I do find the topic ridiculous.

 

I don`t agree with much either. But it seems that if Bush mentions God and Jesus often, he gets support. By brainwashed biblethumpers. Not that I have anything against those. But I distincty remember bibethumpers, praying to god to make Bush win the election, and thats exatly what the "musims" are doing, for whatever reason. And thats the kind of shots we get in the media, of muslims praying up high, for seme reason. Bush distincly made a quote of christianisizn Iraq, at some point. No wonder musims "dilsike" the US, But anyway, as I said, I don`t srick to this video. It has some elements thats erit investigation, but I DON`t belive its an inside job!!!! hehe

 

I won't be watching the video clips. It would take too much time to download the videos on my dial up connection, and I would like to sleep at some point tonight.

The whole thing just sounds too big to be an inside job. I would expect that Al Queda would have their fifth column in place to prepare the attacks, like learning about the security to allow for the hijackings, learning roughly where to hit the buildings and what not, but I don't think that the US government could be involved in this.

I would not be surprised if Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11. I would bet that Bin Laden would be hiding somewhere else, and deflect the pissed off, gun-totin' redneck in the White House towards a target they had reason to go after anyway (the poppy fields in Afghanistan would produce tons of Opium), and after the Taliban fell, the will of the American people was still strong. Therefore, someone else had to be sacrificed. I would not be surprised if there was bad blood between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, so you get the war in Iraq. He gets to kick the US in the nuts and get influence in a couple Muslim states while waiting for their political will to go after him...

 

How about the fact that the planes cut structural beams across more than half a dozen floors on a diagonal, thus severally weakening the remaining beams.
Also, normally jet fuel wont burn hot enough by itself to reach the temps reported. However when you have put it into what is in essence a forced air furnace it will burn much hotter than normal.
Remember that the planes created tunnels all the way through the buildings very high up, were the winds are pretty fast. These would have provided excellent entry/exhuast points.
Especially when combined with the elevator shafts that opened when the cars crashed into the lobby, blowing the doors open & damaging the lobby doors & windows.
I would be suprised if temps didn't reach 2000+ degrees at certain points in the building.
Plus the massive electrical system in the building, some scrap steel plants use electricity to heat 30 tons of steel to 1800degrees in less than 30 minutes.
How many instances of electrical system/structural steel contact did they have after the crash heating up points in the building?
Everything i can find indicates the building was 90-95% full as far as tenants were concerned when it was hit, not sure where you are getting that there were numerous empty floors?

 

Sorry, it all still seems pretty daft to me. If I was rich and powerful, there are 3 zillion other things I'd do before trying something this elaborate. It all just sounds like far too much hard work.

 

@Chick
Glad I could entertain you. I said poorly performed because of all the blunders the govt and media had to cover up. USgovt could have made the towers collapse in a more realistic fashion, but then again, if you ignite thermate on one floor, the floor below will go off quickly anyway.
And the fact that the 7/7 patsies missed the metro, because it was cancelled, and UKgovt still stuck to the story. It's so typical of public transport, it made me laugh.
But the govts knew the people would believe it no matter how badly they screwed up, because they control the major media.

@Rawgrim
Saddam Hussein's parliament was 40% christian. The Baath party was the christian party of Iraq. If Bush wanted Iraq to turn christian, he'd have been better off not attacking. What the US & UK do want, is to encourage sectarian violence in Iraq. Zeitgeist mentions the two British SAS officers captured in Basra: When the Iraqis asked why they were dressed as muslims on a jeep, shooting people on the streets, the UKgovt simply asked for them to be returned. When the Iraqis refused that, they were broken out of jail by the army. The UK gave a flighty apology, and that's all that was mentioned about it in the news. That's the power of the media, no continued coverage, no problem.

@Gnarf
Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11. It's taken as a fact because the USgovt produced a video in which he confessed. The video is compared to all other Bin Laden videos in Zeitgeist, and the fact that it isn't Bin Laden is plain for all to see: BL has a thin nose and light skin, the actor has dark skin and a broad nose. If you looked at the comparison, I'm sure you'll feel as stupid as I did, believing USgovt. Even in the grainy Youtube video the comparison is unmistakeable, it's so poorly performed.

@martaug
Of course it didn't burn optimally. Kerosine burns off very quickly, not enough to continually heat the beams, to even weaken them. Did you see any BLUE flames, like in a furnace or gas cooker? I saw only YELLOW flames for a short while, and a lot of BLACK smoke, clearly a fire with a limited supply of oxygen. The jet fuel was all burnt up long before the building collapsed. Nothing in the building would make the jet fuel burn hotter than its maximum burn temperature, and the fire clearly wasn't even close to an efficient burn.
Electrical fires probably can't get over 1500 F either, not without the right fuel. Since they weren't mentioned as the primary cause of the fire, it's just speculation.
As for 90-95% full, that's correct, but this refers to the normal occupation. The building itself could have probably contained twice as much offices, but many floors were empty. The WTC was very expensive for NYC to maintain, a white elephant. It is detailed in one of the 911 coincidences vids.

@HB
But if you were a rich neoconservative, who believes his country behaves like the mongol hordes... Then you'd create an enemy image for the good of you, your country, and the world. Not everyone thinks like you do. 'Power corrupts', it's not a meaningless phrase.

 

And as the videos point out, 'maintenance' workers were moving people around weeks before the event, and removed the bomb sniffing dogs. The fact that a controlled demolition takes so much time, is damning for the USgovt, because muslim terrorists couldn't have pulled it off.

The 'hijackers' are known to be alive and well, living in Saudi Arabia, Libia, etc. They don't like the accusations, or that their passports have been stolen. USgovt hasn't revised its terrorist list, no continued coverage, no problem. As for setting off the thermate, it burns in a burst of extreme heat, not a concussive blast. If some were to be set alight prematurely, it would fuel the fire (it probably did, if 1832 F was measured.), but if it accidentally set off all the thermate, it would simply have brought down the building sooner. No harm done.

I'm no expert, but I'm sure it can be pulled off. There was no 'blazing fire' in reality, the kerosine burnt off in a flash, you could see the fireball. The rest of the fires were small, yellow flames, lots of black smoke (black smoke means a fire is limited by oxygen, and doesn't burn as hot as it could), maybe some thermate set alight somewhere. Nothing the rest of the charges couldn't withstand.

9/11 commission didn't even mention building 7, because they have no explanation for it. It also collapsed to dust, bu only had fires on a couple floors. After claiming all kinds of hazrdous substances were stored there, and those stories being rebuffed, the person responsible eventually admitted it was demolished 'for safety'. Again, no further coverage, no problem.

So this mistress would be taken seriously, huh? After being declared unreasonable from the divorce, or just some insane bar-skank? Yeah, the truth would really come out there.
And nothing CAN go wrong, the media determines where you attention is diverted.
If they want you to focus on a muslim, doing something shocking, that his kin were doing for centuries, you will. If they decide muslims are insane, you'll believe it to. They had me fooled for a long time too.

 

We're in charge, or else!
You're either with us or against us.
Semantics. But i wish they were open about it, then opposition would be established.

And the purpose of muslim wars isn't to just whip in, grab the oil, and get out. It's to create more veterans, let some yankee troops unleash their frustrations so the USA people feel they're getting payback for 9/11, but most importantly of all:
It's to keep you and me scared of muslims. The USgovt still hasn't gotten all personal data on european citizens yet, the USgovt probably thinks it can get some more civil liberties removed before this is all over.
The bankers always profit from wars, and are eager to enter new ones. Vietnam, WW1 and 2, and now the muslim wars, they profit bankers greatly.
The US spends, what, 2 billion a week in war now. All has to be borrowed from the federal reserve, devaluating the rest of the currency. Making the poor more poor.

As for the control thing:
The neocons are paranoid. They see a kid in the streets listening to rap music, they get the idea society is going down the drain. If they get robbed, they want to lash out at the mean fire-ants that bit them.
So they create a situation in which they can persuade those people to get themselves killed. "Stop listening to rap music, we have a dangerous enemy that's out to kill us! Go join the army."
Those in power aren't satisfied to merely sit back and watch. In order to maintain their power, they believe society must be kept focused (away from them).

 

coineineagh, I've spend six years studying statics, dynamics, materials, thermodynamics, aerodynamics and about a dozen other subjects that 9/11 brings into play. I could break down every step of the process of the Twin Towers collapsing, but it'd probably take a few hours and I don't have the time. For now, let me say this:

The Twin Towers were not designed to withstand any kind of aerial impact bigger than a private prop-driven plane. The Twin Towers were designed to put most of the support structure on the outside, with a central collumn on top of it. Much of this was destroyed on impact. Add to that the fact that the Twin Towers were essentially two giant chimneys filled with combustable materials. How hot does the end of a cigarette get, and how much smoke does it put out, all when you 'pull' on it? Now consider that the Twin Towers were bigger, with better fuel, and a little more oxygen. This essentially was an optimum burn pattern, if not for the jet fuel, then for everything else in the building.

On top of that, like others have said, a gov't with that much control and power wouldn't need to do stuff like this, and definitely wouldn't mess it up this badly. Also, a gov't with that much control and power wouldn't be stable for 10 minutes. Remember, the principle of entropy applies to social structures, too, but the primary method of exporting entropy to the surroundings in a social structure is trust, with fear as a poor secondary. You're conspiracy theory would begin decaying before it had even been hatched.

 

Your name and signature tell me enough:
You're a religious person.
You'd trade in peace for freedom. (muslims want to wage war with us, so let's fight those crazy muslims)
You'd trade in freedom for happiness. (the times are too dangerous for freedom, take it away, keep me safe)
Don't forget: "He is a fool who trades public opinion for honesty"
Your political viewpoint is clear: Religious, militaristic, nationalistic.
Wow, my nemesis!

Oh, he says he's an expert. Let's believe every word he says.
I don't like confronting a more senior site member like this, but what you're saying is so blatant, it's provocative. You sir, are a BIG HONKIN' LIAR. You're claiming to be an expert to reassure people that there's nothing to see here. Or perhaps you've been misled yourself, but I suspect you know what you're doing. I don't know which kind of articles you've been reading about 911, but I can discredit your following statements by appealing to simple old fashioned common sense.

Not what the architects, builders and designers said initially, though some were persuaded to change statements later. Boeing 707-proof.

Mr. self-proclaimed expert,
I'm sure the reinforced concrete pillars, distrubuted within the building, bore some weight, and the building wouldn't be very resilient without them. But the plane crashed in one side of the building, only taking a portion of these out on one side, which would result in the building falling sideways. It didn't.
The idea that the outer shell of the building was the tough part, is ridiculous. In fact, most if not all buildings are constructed by first erecting the support structure in the centre. Pass by any construction site and you'll know this to be true. The 47 interlocked solid steel pillars were the major support strucure, no matter what any magazine says. Have you ever known of a building being constructed from the outside in? The outside is all glass and frameworks, all cosmetics, barely any support.

No. The materials don't explain the volume of smoke, nor the temperature. It doesn't explain why molten steel is dripping out of the WTC. Nothing in the WTCs could possibly burn hotter than high-octane kerosine. The fact that the fire was huge, doesn't mean it could burn hotter. The bigger a fire, the less oxygen gets to the core. No matter how hard you pull on your cigarette, it won't exceed the optimum burn temperature of tobacco.
Oh, and not even a cigarette can collapse in 10 seconds.

USA sells weapons. No war, no business. Bush has an even bigger investment in oil and war, because of his families' affiliations. He makes much more money trading with the Bin Ladens than he does as a president. And maybe, just maybe, all those blunders were made by honest people hoping the truth would come out.
And no comment on the vague entropy stuff. Or wait; You haven't dazzled me with brilliance, you've baffled me with bulls***.

I'd like to include this statement:
The Bush administration is trying and succeeding in changing the way history will be recorded. The more lies a government hides, the more polarized and extremist it becomes. This course of events marks the beginning of the end for the NATO alliance, and probably the start of World War 3. Naturally many more people will die overseas than there will in the States, that's why this concerns me as well. The only thing I ask of you is to not believe the lies, and not go along with the madness.
I've seen many layers of denial exhibited here, meaning that the government's hold on you is strong. Everyone seems to find the weak debunking arguments more logical, but what is really happening, is that you are inclined to believe the government and media. Because together they are infalliable, as you have learned. No degree of persuasion is enough to get you to even watch the videos. So you base your decision on trust and belief, and refuse to watch the vids in case they may contain undeniable evidence.
I can only hope you'll one day change your minds.

 

Sorry but that wasn't 20,000+ gals of fuel burning up in that first explosion.
I am seriously hoping you are arguing this just to play "devil's advocate" & don't really believe it.
Next you will be saying that the moon landings were faked.