Zeitgeist, 9/11 Coincidences, 7/7 Ripple Effect, etc.

I *know* it, because I've seen irrefutible evidence in the videos, so there's nothing TO believe.
For you, you *choose to believe* your government, it's blind faith and determination. But I am wondering whether it's a good idea to push americans to question the foundations of their beliefs. Maybe I'm doing you a disservice. If it's anything like devout christians losing their religion, I might be turning people into unscrupulous monsters... Oh well, I may as well finish what I started.
Moon landings: how is that relevant? I don't even care to voice an opinion on something so unimportant.

In the past, americans:
- Were murderers, rapists, other lowlife thugs that colonial powers sought to get rid of.
- They nearly completely exterminated the american-indian population. Using charming tactics like gifts of plague-ridden cloth.
- Invented a religion (mormons) that justifies wiping out the indians, because they killed Jesus. Dumbfounding levels of denial and self-justification right there.
- Used slaves. The USA is so proud that they finally abolished slavery in a big civil war (IIRC the last country to abolish).
- Stood idly by while a war of right vs wrong (I don't believe in good or evil, but the nazis were really dark gray) was being fought against the nazis. You only cared to join in when you were actually attacked.
- In fact, you played a major part in fueling the fires of both sides of WW2, but I'll stick to that which you're willing to believe.
- The Cold War was an aversion to an idealism which the government told you was threatening your way of life. Military buildup threatened to destroy us all in your government-fueled insanity. In fact, nuclear winter still isn't an impossibility, and many americans still hate commies.
- You used extensive espionage methods during the cold war, bound by no rules or public scrutiny. These institutions are still up and runniong to this day.
- USgovt is unwilling to agree not to use inhumane warfare, nukes, clusterbombs, etc.
- USgovt is unwilling to adhere to environmental protocols, because they don't want even developing countries to catch up in any way.

10 points I came up with, just what happened to come to mind.
Feel free to do the same for my own (dutch) government, but i won't disagree with you. Here, I'll even get you started: We practically invented atlantic slavery. I did this not to insult you or your government, but to make this point:
Your government was no sweetheart in the past, so what makes you think they've suddenly changed? Your admirable, unwavering faith in the integrity of your government is an illusion.


@ Montresor
I agree with you, that the kerosine may have burned for a long time. But that doesn't change things, it still can't melt iron, and it wouldn't have disintegrated the WTC.
Thermate isn't an explosive charge, it's a powerful exothermic reaction, causing massive amounts of heat to be produced. It's one of the few things that can melt iron. If burning kerosine reached charges (it did. and maybe 'charges' isn't the right word, because it's not explosives) it would make them heat up, but that's fine. It makes the crash look more violent.
Not everyone needed to be browbeaten into submission, the major networks were simply ordered by the owners what to report. Minor journalists were ignored. Once an aire of ridicule and skepticism was created, no voice would be taken seriously anymore.
I feel a bit like a Jehova's Witness: "I'm here to save your soul! You'll all burn in eternal hellfire and damnation!" "Yes that's nice. Thanks for stopping by. Take care now bye bye then."
Yes I know that you won't consider the Bush administration capable of it. Read above.

 

[removed by yours truly]

Good, thats very smart of them.

Indeed.

But I'm just kidding, I think 9/11 was a setup too! The Jews, whom we all know to control the US government, did it because of all the gold in the cellars of the towers. We cannot find this gold anymore because the explosions were so hot that the gold molecues became steel molecules (due to sub-atomical processes.) This may sound weird but the Jews used special alien technology that was taken from the Roswell site. I am absolutely convinced because there is irrefutable proof of these facts and they can be found in certain videos on the Internet, like this one. If you do not believe me, then you force yourself to *believe* otherwise.

 

Oops, sorry Tal.
I didn't say anything (whistles)
Morgoth's right that the dutch government is very socialist, but even that is changing nowadays due to populist right-wing movements (Pim Fortuyn, Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Rita Verdonk) who prey on racist/discriminatory feelings in our multicultural society, so that even the poorest folk vote for their right-wing parties. The changing social atmosphere, started by the changes in USA, have polarized people here in Holland too. When I first believed that muslims were actually dangerous, I was interested in what Pim Fortuyn wanted to really change. But since his assassination, very shady opportunists have sought to continue his movement. Their agendas have no place in a democracy.

Morgoth encourages you to make the assumption that every left-wing thinker is a 'goddamn hippie'. I assure you I don't do drugs. And socialism is a form of democracy, so I'd urge you to respect it.

 

Say what now?

 

Yeah, and I have a very reliable source - South Park.
But if it's wrong, or not nuanced enough, feel free to elaborate.

 

Wrong. By definition, a left wing "thinker" places the state above the person. A 'goddamn hippie' doesn't. The problem with socialism is that it sees every individual as a lesser rambling idiot who is unable to think or act for himself. The self-styled left-wing intellectual cannot stand that right-wing populists are popular amongst the poorer parts of society. I quote:

So instead of saving the entire population by decreasing the size of the government. We should make it larger by effecting better health care, schooling. There should be no unemployment, racism and "no discrimination" (whatever that means nowadays.) Then the people will no longer vote for populists and we will all live happily in big giant utopia! Woot!!

It's appaling really. You do realize that:
a) We have very intelligent and respected members of the Mormon church here on this boards, and
b) South park is by absolutely no means a basis for an opinion. Duh.


Edit:

Wow!? Either you're just reiterating something someone said to you without even thinking about it in the slightest, or you're willfully ignoring European history. Either way, I'll try to help you here (because I'm nice!) The Spanish started sending slaves to America in 1502, that's about a century before the Dutch Golden Age. The Dutch slave trade only started becoming important in the 17th century. It's true that the Dutch used to be actively involved, but we never were the largest on the Atlantic. We were the largest on the Indian ocean though, but we were also the only important country there.

 

You were already corrected for insults, and I still taste some of that bile seeping through, man. I'm here for some constructive discussion, not a heated argument.

I'm not extreme left, myself. I don't dismiss the death penalty outright. Complaints of racism/antisemitism can go too far (gemierenneuk). I think PvdA socialism allows for big gaping holes on many levels, begging for system abuse. And I also don't think the wealthy should be paying for pampering the lazy. But I do believe in a system where everyone has a chance for a university education, and that a *large* government should enforce social laws. Reducing taxes to welcome opportunistic multinationals has its benefits, but very little of that revenue goes to the people. You're right that hippies are more anarchistic, and nothing to do with socialism.

a) I guess I should apologize for being inconsiderate. Not that it's any different from questioning your beliefs in the 9/11 story. The statement stands, till someone can tell me it's untrue. I never insinuated mormons weren't intelligent; 'dumbfounding' means baffling.
b) You're repeating what I already admitted to, through healthy sarcasm.

You're nice?!? Oh, healthy sarcasm!
The Netherlands didn't exist in 1502. I'm talking about the slave trade triangle, where massive amounts of slaves were transported to the colonies. It was started in the 17th century by the dutch. You know this.
If some spaniards brought their own servants along, it doesn't start the slave trade.

 

I personally have some misgivings about the official theory of 9/11, but I doubt the entire thing was completely fabricated, including the "Saudi" hijackers. My own suspicions run in a different directions: I wonder if the intelligence memo about Osama's intention to hit the USA and whatever information preceded/followed it wasn't taken with a lot more attention than we are told, and at least some people in power knew that these attacks would be attempted, and possibly where.

Personally, one other thing has bothered me more than the structural damage theories; how long does it take for the military to intercept any plane not flying in certain air corridors? It happens hundreds of times each year around the world (most of the cases are false alarms but planes fly out anyway), and is a practice that started way before 9/11. The Twin Towers are bad enough, but I would be more than a little surprised if a plane could go anywhere near the Pentagon without a heck of a lot of clearance (we are talking about the seat of the DoD, after all). And after several planes were lost, at least one was believed to be hijacked and was rammed into the WTC? The worst part was that to the best of my knowledge no one took the blame for this fiasco. The air control and, heck, the entire USAF got caught with their pants down so badly that it made Matthias Rust's flight to the Red Square appear practically inconsequential. When a country's air control and air defense system messes up that badly, someone has to take responsibility. To the best of my knowledge, no one did, nor was called to do so. What gives?

 

I'm not a lawyer, but the legal concept I believe applies here is "balance of probability", and despite all your posts, coineineagh, the more believable version of the story is that some radical people calling themselves Muslims but actually acting out of more political motivations than religious ones hijacked some planes and flew them into the WTC buildings. If the US government (or the Bushies, if you want to loo k at it this way) had the power to do something like this, the balance of probability is that they would have done something more effective instead of following a policy that ended up getting their President the lowest public approval ratings in recent history.

As for your Mormon comments, they are beneath contempt. I have no problem when someone makes a point about my religion that is based in fact, but if you are seriously contending that the Mormon church was created by the American government, or that ANYONE created it for the repulsive purpose you wrote, you are utterly ignorant of what you speak, and even the most die-hard anti-Mormon who has studied anything of the history of the church would agree with me. If you were trying to go for comedic shock value, you failed miserably. If you think that being deliberately offensive is a mature or valid tactic in a debate, you are wrong. I'll stop now because my blood is steaming beyond what it has ever been on this board.

 

LMFAO. What can I say but LMFAO...

Jesus has already been killed in Jerusalem by the Romans before he came to the Americas. He was a resurected being who taught the people here the same things he taught in Jerusalem before ascending to Heaven.

LMFAO (still at the Mormon comment).

The Native Americans were the decendents of a people that fled Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ. Evetually they would apostasize and evolve into the Natives we see today. The did NOT kill Jesus Christ. The Government had NO hand in founding the Church.

LMFAO...

So can I schedule your baptism? After all, We Mormons are the only ones that go to heaven. The rest of you non-believers go to Hell to have sex with Saddam Hussein for Eternity...

Funny, the only thing people I talk to about the Church get baffled about is the Word of Wisdom (no booze, drugs, coffee, tea and tobacco)...

LKD: I just took that comment as proof that he's an idiot. I can't be sure where that stuff came from, but as a farm boy, I have some ideas...

 

Alright I now love this thread ... Especially after Coineineagh (idk if I got it right this time) used South Park to justify one of his points. The Spanish did bring a ton of slaves over early (I think that is what you are denying), I'm taking a Colonial Latin American History class right now and that's one of the early points.

I think LKD and Gnarf covered the mormon part, but to clarify...
(1) Mormons/LDS church people believe in the bible... so yes, Jesus was killed in the mid-east by jewish/roman/etc. people.
(2) The US government hated the Mormon church when it was founded, the state of Missouri even had an extermination order put out against them... that wasn't taken off until 1980 or something ha

You'd think the Colonial powers would have no trouble taking out a bunch of hooligans.

 

They were what now??

 

sorry

1) So far I've battled a wall of denial and disbelief, presenting evidence that people refuse to watch or believe. This was to be expected.
2) On multiple occasions I've been ridiculed, insulted, and basically declared insane. Also to be expected.
3) I've received a negative reputation comment, though that could have been avoided, had I been more diplomatic in my wording.
4) I just got an official infraction, for insulting religion. Fair enough.
But what disappoints me most:
5) This debate is degenerating into a religious discussion, over two lousy sentences. They only served as an illustration...

I can't prevent people from posting even more about religion, but that is not what this thread was intended for. If it becomes a wastebin for outrage comments, I'll politely request that the thread be locked.

I do sincerely apologize for insulting anyone's religion. I would remove the comment, but it's already been quoted. I was on a roll, and my momentum made me include a very inconsiderate comment.

 

That's what the Book of Mormon teaches... nothing else, so unless you're familiar with their doctrine, definitely a:

"They were what now??"

Statement.

Oh and I'm pretty sure it's not a religious debate, no worries about that. I think people were just a little concerned about that point of yours containing false information... with South Park as a source of course...

 

If you're going to split hairs, we're both wrong: The Portuguese were in Africa way before 1502. They transported slaves from Morocco and further south to their homelands. Since it happens in the Atlantic, it constitutes Atlantic slavery. But maybe the Romans invented it first, or the Carthaginians?

But they preferred to use them as indentured servants along with their slaves. Extra manpower, faster expansion.

 

Exactly. Why would anyone bother with the most elaborately risky plan imaginable, when there are 100 other plans that would be much simpler and more likely to result in much greater profit?

 

Are you saying that most Mormons believe that? Just how the heck did such a thing happen?