Gonna give IWD2 a shot.. Party help needed

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Hello everybody after playing BG2, Icewind Dale 1 and NWN 1+2 alot i'm going to give Icewind Dale 2 a shot but before i do that i wanna come up with a party to use. Note that the most important for me isnt that the characters are as strong as possible but of caurse i dont want them to be broken. What matters is that they are fun to play with and fits into my "theme" that i had in mind for them (i know i make it hard for you guys.

1. First and want to have druid because i just love druids and what i want him to be is shapeshifter, a shapeshifting tank. Thought i heard shapeshifter aint that good in IWD 2 they cant be as bad as BG2 right?
So most levels will be put in Druid but then what other classes could be good to improve my shapeshifting?
I was thinking either 1 level of monk for the Wis bonus to AC or maybe a level of barbarian for the Rage, extra speed and life. It all depends on what works with shapeshifts and what does not.

Then what feats, does power attack and cleave work? It feels like they should. How good are the 3 shapeshifting feats Beetle, panther and shambling mound?

2. Then i like Bards though single bard looks abit boring so i was thinking about mixing it with Battleguard of Tempus.
Mixing them pretty evenly though stopping Bard at 11 when i get the last song.

3. A sorc maybe, guess you cant go wrong with with a sorc. A bit boring but they are effective.

4. Guess i need a rogue now. I had Rogue/Demarch of Mask on my mind but it looks like i would overdo it abit on the Cleric side with Druid, Tempus and Mask.
How would a Rogue/Monk work? What weapon would you use and so? Unarmed or perhaps a single Monk weapon.

5. I probably need a pure melee fighter here, another tank. As you maybe noticed I'm not to fond of people with no magical/divine abilitie so i dont really have any good idea.

6. I dont have any idea on the last one. Maybe a archer or a Paladin, suggestions?

Thanks to everyone who read my little wall of text and more so to everyone who answers

 

A normal balanced party works just fine in IWD2. 2 tanks, 2 healers (one of whom could be a druid) and 2 arcane users works great!

I wouldn't say shapeshifting is any better in this game than in BG2, although you can download a mod which takes it too far and makes it IMBA Druids do have a surprising amount of useful spells however.

You could be boring and go a straight fighter, although I wouldn’t recommend it. A pure cleric with single level of monk and rogue makes a great tank to be honest.

A pure wizard/sorcerer is a must. Two or more actually. Just let the tanks soak up the damage while these guys nuke everything in sight. Enough said.

Bards work ok I guess. You’re right that after level 11, they lose their effectiveness. You could multi to a cleric if you wanted, although I’d prefer a sorcerer. Charisma complements both classes perfectly.

Rogues are, unfortunately, quite useless in IWD2. Most locks can be bashed open early-game and by the time they get tough, you'll have plenty of knock spells to spare. Traps also aren't much of a big deal; aside from about one or two, most can be set off without much harm done.

A rogue's sneak attack isn't all too flashy either. Remember in BG how a 13th level thief (I think?) would have x5 backstab? 3rd edition rules butcher this. 1d6 sneak attack damage every 2 levels is what you get. So by level 30, you'll have 15d6. Honestly, take 2 levels for evasion and a nice amount of skill points to play with, then take the other 28 on something more useful.

Monks work nice as well, although I’ve never liked them. The attack animation just annoys me, which is bizarrely enough to make me not choose them Their ability to paralyse an opponent is outstanding though.

You’re probably going to get a lot of replies but I think only after you’ve played the game for awhile, will you be able to figure out what kind of party you really want. Just experiment and most of all, have fun!

 

I'm not an expert in IWD2, but here is my opinion:

1. I found druids shapeshifting abilities way more useful in IWD2 than in BG2, especially in certain specific battles/ situations. Shapeshifting loses its edge in the long run, though. That's one reason why I don't think that those extra-shape feats are really necessary, because the basic wild shapes (polar bear etc.) are more than enough. 1 level of monk helps, and doesn't have many, if any, drawbacks.

2. Bard/Battleguard sounds very interesting, but it might be hard to make it effective. That build would require decent abilities in atleast CHA & WIS, and maybe in DEX & STR. With heavy armor/shield, arcane spell failure (in bard spells) is bound to happen often.

3. That's right: you can't go wrong with a sorc.

4. You'll need a character with rogue levels, but 2-3 is enough. Classic Rogue(3)/Wizard(x) might be useful, if you don't want another divine caster ( Rogue/ Demarch of Mask). IMO it's also "easier" build, since high INT & DEX pretty much does it. Rogue/Monk is also nice for scouting and as a decoy.

5. Tanks are always needed, but a pure melee fighter isn't that great in IWD2. Fighter(4)/cleric(X) or fighter(4)/paladin(x) are much stronger in the long run.

 

heyhey, did somebody say they wanted advice...?

Before you decide what your party will be like, you must decide which mods you're going to install. For this, you can read my mod list.
I fancy myself as a bit of a guide writer, and I've written a guide that I think will answer your questions perfectly. I'm into 'versatile' powergaming, so I think you'll find it very useful. Download my guide in the IWD2_4dummies file here. It's fortunate, because just today I finished my second version of the guide.
Now you already have a pretty good idea of what to go for, and I'm glad you already came up with the monk1/druidX build. I'm surprised you thought of the bard/tempus mix, as a similar build was in my old guide.
Your druid is set to be a useful party member, stick with it and you can't go wrong. Now your idea of keeping bard and cleric levels equal however, is unwise. The leveling scheme in IWD2 makes it very bad to be 'multi'class, it's better to have a main casting class, and keep the mix-ins to a minimum. I'd advise you to do what I did, and not take an 11-level bard mix-in, but stop at 5 levels: Tymora's Melody is at least as useful as the War Chant of Sith, and this allows your cleric to progress further. It also solves your armour problem, as Kullervo described. Since your bard mix-in won't have many spells, you can choose spells that can be cast outside of combat, and can cozily wear heavy armour, casting only cleric spells in combat. Bards have been known to take of their coats before performing...
Of course you need a sorcerer. My advice, as explained in my guide, is the supercheesy sorcX/paladin1/monk1/ranger1. It has 3 levels of protection from spells, and is practically impervious to anything but melee. But many other builds are viable.
I'll repeat what's already been said about rogues, for emphasis: You don't need more than a 2 level mix-in to perform all rogue duties adequately. It's highly advisable to combine it with a high-DEX wizard main class, because the synergies of intelligence work perfectly together. Better spellcasting, more skillpoints, high INT and DEX modifiers for rogue skills. You can combine rogue with a warrior if you like, but if you have to limit the starting values of STR and/or CON to accomodate for INT and DEX, the build is inefficient, in my opinion.

It's widely agreed that clerics, properly buffed, are unmatched in melee by any of the warrior classes. So good news for you: you don't have to give up a build for a warrior-type. If you are willing to consider a warrior, then the barbarianX/fighter4 is what I'd recommend: With the cleric's buffs, this one has staying power on the battlefield, to give your spellcasters all the time in the world. But it's not the general consensus: some think barbarians are easy-to-use characters for beginners, with no spellcasting depth. I disagree, I think they're versatile powergaming characters.
As for the 6th build, well, you don't want a third divine caster, coz that's overdoing it? Then another sorcerer. Or try a monk for the fun of it!

This is my party, as detailed in my new guide (STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA):
Crazy Laey LN 18-15-16-5-15-11 F. Drow Bard 5 / Cleric of Bane X
Lizzt Do’Urden NG 18-18-16-5-18-5 F. Drow C. Lathander X / Fighter 4
Hiugh Bastard CE 18-18-20-3-14-1 M. Duergar Barbarian X / Fighter 4
Kim of the Woods LN 18-16-18-3-18-3 F. Human Druid X / Monk 1/R1/D1*
Selunist Sasquia LG 16-18-18-3-3-18 F. Human Paladin 1 / Sorcerer X /R1/M1*
Debbi Illuster NE 12-20-18-18-5-1 F. Svirfneblin Illusionist X / Rogue 2 /R1/D1/B2*

Abbreviated mix-in classes are to ve taken in the late game, when advancing in the main casting class is less crucial. R=ranger, M=monk of ilmater, B=bard, D=dreadmaster of bane

 

1. Barbarian rage and monk AC bonus for high wisdom work in shapeshifted form, but I recommend keeping the druid pure, since one druid level does make a big difference. Barbarian rage is nearly useless since its strength bonus doesn't stack with other strength bonuses.
One monk level grants an AC bonus, but you gain BAB and therefore extra attacks 1 level later than a pure druid. You also get new shapeshift forms later, half the time you can't cast spells you're supposed to be able to and all the time you'll have less spells available and worse spell effects.

For a human druid I'd choose the following stats: 18-16-18-3-18-3, for an elf 15-14-16-10-18-3, for a shield dwarf 15-14-18-10-18-1.
I'd max out concentration, make sure to have 14 points in spellcraft when you want to take the very useful "scion of storms" feat at level 12 or 15, a few skillpoints can be spent in wilderness lore.
The most useful feat for druids are rapid shot, GSF transmutation and scion of storms. Extra shapeshift forms are useless and therefore not worth wasting a feat.

2. I recommend keeping the bard pure, at least until he has reached level 11. Even afterwards multiclassing with another class isn't worth it, since low level spells of other casting classes aren't nearly as useful as high level bard spells. Wisdom is useless for bards, so bard and cleric don't mix well.

4. If you want your rogue for dealing out damage use a long range, high damage two-handed weapon take high strength as possible and remember that only rogue levels increase the sneak attack bonus (how about a half-orc barbarian1/rogue x ?). If you just want to pick locks rogue1/diviner or rogue1/transmuter are a better choice. With the skill bonuses and extra skill points high int grants even a character without a rogue level can handle thievery. I don't think rogue/monk would work well.

Your are not in danger of "overdoing it abit on the Cleric side", you are actually "underdoing" it. You need a pure cleric. My favorite is shield dwarf battleguard of tempus, but other builds should work too if you don't multiclass.

5. You don't need a pure melee fighter. Priests or multiclasses can fight too with the right stats. Every party member should be an archer, there's need to build a special one.

 

Consider the Icewind Dale 2 NPC Project for some of your characters.

http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwd2npc/

 

Seconded. Great mod!

 

I don't recommend installing any mods (this applies to the NPC project too) unless you've already finished the game and are searching for a different experience.

I also don't recommend multiclassing your main casters. Combat can become frustrating if you don't have the spells available you're supposed to have because you slowed down the spell proogression by adding other class levels. It looks tempting to get the biggest advantages of some classes by taking only one level, but you are not exploiting the game engine to your advantage, you're cheating yourself by crippling your party's efficiency.

 

I think the biggest question is whether you intend to take this party through HoF mode or not. If you do plan to, then start developing some multi-classing plans.

If you only intend to play normal mode. Do NOT multi-class any of your casters. The new spells are more important and a pure cleric will probably hit 16, which just opens up level 8 spells. If you go a 4 fighter, 12 cleric, you're gimping yourself on spells for moderate life and BaB bonuses. The spells are better.

You can multi-class all the pure melee characters you want though. Duel-wielding characters should take 1 level ranger provided they stay in light armor, which usually goes well with 1 level of monk.

For the bard, expect to micromanage that character a LOT. You can't sing and fight at the same time, so you'll usually pop off 1 spell, switch back to song, wait one round to make the song stick, pop off a spell and repeat. I usually take a 11 bard/19 druid. The 11 bard levels are taken first. Since the bard just sits in the back and sings, the druid levels are mainly for prebuffing barkskin then taking the occasional pot shot.

 

Don't bother about HoF mode, any balanced party can beat it. With the powerful spells available to your high level casters you'll probably even have an easier time in HoF mode than in the first normal mode chapter.

Bards don't require much micromanaging at all. The bard script works quite well. Once you've done a calculation about the usefulness of bard songs for your party you don't want to interrupt the singing of a a mid-level bard unless you meet monsters immune to the siren's yearning song.
You don't need this character to cast low level spells of another class at a casting level 11 levels lower than the rest of the party, even in HoF mode. In HoF mode high level bards can cast the most powerful spells and the effects of low level bard spells improve when the bard's level increases.

 

I don't mean to be offensive or anything but the Monk 1/Druid X is certainly not that original, nor is the Bard/Cleric mix. Nothing new under the sun. No reason to be "surprised" either since both builds are quite solid.

That build may look good on paper but I wouldn't recommend it. I would certainly not take a Ranger level since Ambidexterity and Dual Wielding aren't so great for a Sorcerer (I wouldn't even consider the Ranger level for a solo character although a Monk and Paladin level could to a certain extent benefit a solo Sorcerer by making the character more resilient to enemy spells and bring some extra HP to the table).

I can understand the logic behind the Monk level (Evasion and +2 to saves) but why bother? A Sorcerer shouldn't need these (Evasion won't serve much except if your Sorcerer is spamming area effect spells around himself which is rather useless IMHO since you would probably take GSF Evocation and that would be too reckless).

I'd stick with one Paladin level for CHA bonus to saves but that would be it. Even that Paladin level will make the Sorcerer less efficient as it will prevent the Sorcerer from gaining an extra Sorcerer level which can make a difference in the number and level of spells known (in normal mode it hurts a lot).

It's always a temptation to take many levels from different classes to make a "perfect" build but when you deal with a spellcaster it ends up being a bad idea and I'd certainly not advise taking more than one level from any other class (furthermore Paladin has the disadvantage of not accepting rewards for quests, since it's probably the Sorcerer who is going to do most of the talking and the diplomacy it's best to avoid it unless you can have a Bard in that position).

I learned it the hard way. I used to mix many classes and I liked having some weird characters like the Paladin 1/Monk 1/Cleric X (Ilmater) for fun (make it a female Drow and it gets even worse) but in the end losing two levels made that character less effective as a spellcaster and that is even truer when considering a Sorcerer who should be spamming spells and nuking everything from a distance (relying on spells like Fireshield or Stoneskin if anyone gets close enough).

Although I'm a big fan of this mod, I must say that many choices are not optimal. It can be an extra challenge if you know IWD2 well to make some of these NPCs really effective, but if you are into some kind of powergaming you will have to edit them (I remember for instance that Prachi started with Toughness, it might look good at lower levels with all the extra HPs but anyone will agree that taking it is a waste of a good feat).

EDIT:

There is a weird build that I'm fond of and that can be quite effective in my experience:

NE Dreadmaster of Bane 1 Barbarian 1 Rogue X. 12 WIS, max STR and greater spell focus enchantment to take advantage of 3 'commands' per day. This character wields a two hander, can rage to boost STR. It's hide, sneak attack, cast spell, sneak attack. Repeat and rinse. Quite enjoyable and effective since on his own he can get a maximum of 4 sneak attacks in a row (that's without items, invisibility potions and not taking into account flanking atacks).

 

Druids are ok, they have a lot of healing spells. Sorcerers are a must I always think and a bard is only really handy for one quest

 

I didn't say I was the first to think of it, I just complimented him on his insight. The bard/cleric especially is an arcane/divine mix that at first glance looks like a sub-optimal combination, but turns out to be very effective.

The ranger level is one of the hardest to defend levels, but I couldn't do without it: It gives my spellcasters combat abilities which they sorely need for my play style. I can go on for days without resting, and in many small encounters my spellcasters won't cast spells, but fight. The ranger level makes them much more versatile, at the price of one level. It can be taken later on, if you have doubts. But my playing style involves spellcasters engaging in combat, and I often get criticised about this, some even think that it spoils the atmosphere if a caster steps out of his defined role.

Your advice is of course correct for your playing style. I experienced much irritation when trying to cast AoE damage spells, trying to avoid my arcane casters taking damage. When I added the monk level late in my HoF game, I could cast spells very close by: both my sorcX/pal1/ran1/monk1 and my illusionistX/rogue2/etc have high reflexes and Evasion. All other characters have high hitpoints and/or spell resistance, so I can safely blast my party too. The monk level seems inappropriate, since this character has low wisdom. But late in the game Evasion is like a constant undispellable spell protection, at the cost of one level. Take it late in the game, to avoid missing out on important spells earlier. Of course we could keep debating about the cost of being one level behind, but I think it's worth it.

 

I don't like HoF so the logic that taking a few classes is not such a big deal may stand but in normal mode it's a pain.

Agreed. Playing fun builds and powergaming are not always the same thing and the most "effective" builds depends on the way you play (and more importantly enjoy) the game.

Nah, one shouldn't underestimate the power of the Sith.

I love bards but like coineineagh said, it's just my playing style.

 

My type of powergaming is what I'd call 'versatile powergaming': I don't go for the highest possible spell DC when it'll severely cost my cleric in combat, no weird class combos to get 72+ armour class at every expense, and no awful mix-in class at 30th level, giving a big XP penalty. I work with what goes best practically, and sometimes having some combat skills can be more useful than access to level 8 spells. But don't be mistaken, it's still definitely powergaming.

 

I'm not saying you're not powergaming (min maxing stats for characters qualify as powergaming IMHO) but that you're powergaming in your own devious way.

I skimmed through your guide btw, a few comments:

-Monk evasion works while wearing an armour, you could mention it.

-the bug that allows specialist mages doesn't work only with sorcerers it works with any spellcasting class (I know it works with Bard and Cleric and unless I'm mistaken it works with Paladin and Ranger too).

I don't have much to say about your perfect party (which you posted in your first post in this thread) IMHO there are too many Dreadmasters (when I take one it's rather for Tyrant's Dictum not for the +2 WIS, that is just gravy), too many Ranger levels as well (already discussed that but Monk 1/Druid X doesn't need a Ranger level at all since wielding a two hander for range and damage -especially with a high STR- is IMHO more effective than wielding two shorter weapons which won't benefit much from STR) and I wouldn't give Fighter levels to a spellcaster (unless I'm looking for a quick way to get an extra feat which in the long term wouldn't be so great unless I'm playing a Bard 11/Fighter 4) so I'd keep the fulltime Cleric and the Barbarian pure (I'm not a big fan of weapon specialization anyway -buffing with spells makes more sense to me- and I don't play HoF so I'd want my Barbarian to get Greater Rage before the end of the game).

 

Thanks for your comments on my guide, I appreciate it. I have wondered about the 4-level mix-in of fighter, and whether weapon specialization was worth it. But I did say in my guid to take 1 level fighter, and the other 3 when leveling in cleric became less crucial. So no repair is needed to my guide, since I appeal to the readers judgement about when to take the last 3 levels. Same goes with the barbarian.
But I cheat, since my experience table is altered, so i always get experience for kills. That way I ended a level or two further than you did. I also squatted significantly.

About the monk level; if class bonuses are conditional, like is the case for ranger dual-wielding and monk WIS AC bonus, I clearly mention it. The evasion feat is in both the rogue and monk classes, so it doesn't seem necessary to add that it isn't deactivated by wearing armour. But I'll consider adding the info in my next version.
I tested the bug with a bard and cleric; the cleric seems useless, it only removes restrictions of certain spells that both cleric and mage use, like Magic Circle Against Evil and a handful of others. It doesn't unlock the entire spell school. And the bard may unlock certain wizard spells, but only those a bard has, and only when there's a 2 level mix-in (when bard spellcasting enables). These unlocked spells become castable from scrolls, but not memorizable. My illusionist had 2 bard levels added in the late game, and it allowed her to cast wail o/t Banshee from a scroll, but not scribe it... I could mention this too in my guide, but the mix-ins are hardly useful.

 

You're welcome. I guess our game experiences differ since I don't level squat (no patience for this) and I don't use edited XP tables. I tried starting with less than 6 characters and adding a few later on but I wasn't really thrilled by that. Regarding mods I only have the Light of Selune (better traps make the Rogue more effective and having more items is fun) and the NPC mod (great writing) at the moment, I did try Tactics4IWD2 which is awesome but hard if you don't play a well balanced party (which is hard to achieve with the NPC mod although it's great from a RPing point of view).

My point about Monk Evasion is that a new IWD2 player may be led to believe that like other Monk bonuses this perk is lost while wearing an armour. Rogues don't wear heavy armours but they benefit from it all the same while wearing one.

About the spell bug, in my experience the forbidden scrolls appear as being forbidden (belonging to another class) but can be scribed anyway. Can anyone comment on that?

 

Evasion: Yes. I guess if I intend my guide to be 'for dummies', I should include such info as well, even though it seems obvious/unnecessary to me.

Well I think wizards and sorcerers are treated similarly by the game, seeing as they have the same potential spell lists, and that this is the cause of the bug/exploit that removes school restrictions. Seeing as bards, clerics, etc have different potential spells. This is probably the reason that they don't 'unlock' the wizard spell book.