Vice-President Picks

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Tangent: does it irk anyone else that Palin is referred to as a hockey mom all the time? She's a [profanity for emphasis] governor for [ditto]. You can't be Joe Sixpack and in charge of a [ditto] state at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

Today Palin accused Obama of "palling around with terrorists." These people will say anything, I guess. Mac didn't just put lipstick on a pig - he put it on a turd.

 

How was that, when Ayers was with the weathermen, Obama was eight years old, but never mind: GUILTY!

Or guilty by association: By that standard McCain sat on board of a racist group.

 

Ragusa, since you are the king of links and references I recommend you do a little bit of research about Ayers and Obama. You will find out they have a far closer connection then his being an eight year old.

Between Ayers and Wright I am stunned that anyone feels they can trust Obama. Face it, the only two more poisonous mentors I could come up with would be Stalin and OBL.

Edit: And the coward strikes again

 

Mentor? Mentor? Snook, you're kidding, right? This innuendo is getting really tired. Let's examine that Obama-Ayers connection a little, shall we?

Obama and Ayers served together for a time on the board of an antipoverty charity, the Woods Fund of Chicago, from 1999 to 2002. Ayers also contributed $200 to Obama's campaign for the Illinois state Senate on March 2, 2001. Once, in 1995, Obama visited Ayer's home at the invitation of an Illinois state senator, according to a Feb. 22 story in Politico.com. But Politico concluded (and FactCheck.org agrees), "There's no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation."

Your right, I'm sorry. Clearly, anyone who serves on the board with an anti-poverty charity with you, hosts a function for you and several other senators at his house one time, and donates 200 bucks to your senate campaign is a close, personal friend. You know, Snook, I've donated quite a bit more than 200 bucks to Obama's presidential campaign. What does that say about us?

 

TGS, I believe people can reform (although not all will). Ayers has shown he has reformed and is trying to make life better for others -- I can respect that. I can also respect that Obama is willing to allow the man to prove himself. Often politicians cannot choose who will help them with an issue (and Ayers is a professor at UI-Chicago).

The "palling with terrorist" is simply an attack of the same nature as the "100 year war" (along with other ... out-of-context statements from both sides). I don't agree with such attacks, but they are the nature of the beast we have created in our election process.

 

TGS,
T2 and Drew have made my point already. The Ayers non-story is Rovian attack politics at its purest - smear with total disregard for facts or truth. This is truthiness! Just reiterate that meme often enough so it'll stick.

A dose of antidote: How unscrupulous campaign strategists are taking advantage of a quirk in our brains – and what reporters can do to stop helping them.

 

You're going overboard there Ragusa. This type of tactic has been around long before Rove was even born. There are many instances in history where lies, half-truths and non-factual opinion shaped an election. The only advantage today is the rapid access to facts we have to help mitigate the really outlandish claims (and yet they still occur).

There was no "total disregard for the facts" either -- Ayers was a founding member of the most notorious domestic terrorist organization to operate in the US. The only reason he is not in prison (or still in hiding) was prosecutorial misconduct on the part of the federal government. That misconduct allowed for Ayers to take a plea on much lesser charges than the bombings he participated in. Obama having ties to Ayers is akin to a current German politician having ties to Baader-Meinhof.

 

I'd never heard of these "weathermen" before today. A cursory scan of the Wikipedia article says they are pretty radical. This Ayers fellow may have changed, but it would behoove Obama to distance himself from anyone radical enough to have been involved in setting bombs off in US government buildings. There's already some people who are still on the cusp worrying about if Obama really is secretly a Manchurian candidate, and stuff like this does not help to dispel that notion.

Oh, and before anyone comes at me said Manchurian notion is crap -- I know it, most Americans know it, but some are not convinced.

 

DR:

My original statement was because I try to support the truth in any form I find it, so I'll attack a lie before pointing out it is irrelevant. Unfortunately, I'm also not the most avid researcher and I trusted my sources on that one. You corrected me on it, and thank you for that. Keep that in mind for the rest of the post.

Drew:
Interesting stuff on Obama. I must say I'm rather impressed on some of those points, though you did overblow his role in many instances. Still, he gets credit where it's due. I'm still worried about a number of issues and previous stances, but I will say he has done some good things.

On Ayers:
I have heard (and given my history in this forum, I would love contradiction/confirmation on this) that Ayers also helped Obama buy his first house and that Obama went to Ayers to get his blessing before first going into politics. As to Ayers changing, he has since repeatedly said that the Weather Underground didn't do enough, so I doubt it. Also, in general, we are judged by the company we keep, so yes, I do think this is an issue that needs to be resolved, as is Rev. Wright (though I think that's been 'resolved' clearly enough).

Ragusa, as for McCain, if you're right, then it is relevant, as is his connection with the Keating Five (though find me a politician without a few embezzlers in his closet and I'll show you a woman politician )

 

If I am not mistaken there are quite a few German politicians having ties to Baader-Meinhoff. Wasnt Joschka Fischer a former chum of them?

 

T2,
the Weathermen were choir boys compared to Baader-Meinhoff, or rather, the RAF. How many prominent politicians and industrialists did they kill? Embassy seizures? Kidnapping and hostage taking? How many brutal assassinations at point blank range? For how long did they operate? Did they have contacts to eastern block intelligence services? Did they train in Palestinian camps? What about aircraft hijackings? I grew up with their terror in the news and can't help but chuckle at your comparison.

As for the scandal of current German politicans having had contacts to Baader Meinhoff (h/t Joa), Joschka Fischer who later became Foreign Secretary aside, we have a few of them in parliament. This guy has been an activist attorney for them. And this guy here as well. He later became a very hawkish, conservative even - Secretary of the Interior.

The disregard for the fact was in reference to the relation between Obama and Ayres. One can have perfectly benign relations with a person even with such a background. That's also the non-story as far as I am concerned.

As for Rovian: I learned of this style of attacks first when he they were conducted by him, as in this case here. That said, McCain should know really better than to allow what his minions are now trying to inflict on Obama. I think it will blow up in their face, or maybe I just hope that.

 

We're going a bit off-topic here but....

I'd say more like amateurs compared to BM. They certainly did not get the same training BM got. The Weathermen were going down the same path as BM when the most violent and radical of the bunch died (blew themselves up -- some say luck, some say incompetence). Without that core of individuals, the Weathermen chose to make statements without injuring others. However, that does not mean people thought better of them for choosing the new direction.

As I said, Ayers did his time and appears to be reformed -- I have no grudge against him. Others in this country do not share my opinion. Did everyone in Germany completely forgive the three you mention? Does no one bear any grudges?

 

Economies all over the planet are melting down and is this is what the McSmear people believe we need to be discussing? For some reason I would think the next president should be telling us what he will do about the current economic crisis and bringing us together as a nation. We are in for some rough times and someone needs to bring us to a level where we can deal with what we are facing with a degree of reason and the ability to solve a few "problems:" An economic meltdown, 2 ongoing wars and a broken healthcare system. But that's just my opinion.

 

T2,
conservatives still do hold some grudges. It rarely gets rancorous however.

One thing however: In a sense the impact of the RAF on German politics was about as profound as the impact of 9/11 on American politics. It had a lasting effect on legislation and police powers to address security needs, something I think the German governments of that time, namely that of Helmut Schmitt, handled well and level headed.

And my other point: Those in the US who like to say 'Better dead than red!' probably know a commie from tv at best. Odds are they've never met one. What passes as a 'leftist' among the US right is centrist or social democrat in large parts of Europe. In absence of a comparison many Americans apparently don't realise just how right wing their conservatives are when put in a European context.

 

For example? Coming from someone who just proffered the argument that Obama " hasn't championed one bill", the argument that I overblew his role in legislation that you just finished arguing Obama never championed is a bit hard to swallow.

Nope. I think you are confusing Ayers with Tony Rezco. Obama bought a sliver of land from him when he bought his house because he wanted a bigger yard.

Utter crap.

Actually, he made those comments prior to 9/11, but in an ironic twist, they were printed on that fateful day. After 9/11, his comments would likely have been quite different. That said, Ayers and his group never killed anyone, nor was that their goal.

Ayers was a co-worker, not a close personal friend. One of my co-workers was arrested and imprisoned - three times - for dealing drugs. Does the fact that I haven't quit my job speak ill of me? Does it mean I sell crack? Seriously, both Politico and FactCheck.org have debunked the Rezco and Ayers "connections" several times. Both organizations are non-partisan and call out both candidates for factual mis-steps, so this should be your first stop when you hear crap like this and want an honest answer.

 

Drew, you said he played a large roll in passing that tax bill. He was actually one of 40 co-sponsors who signed up on the same day. Somehow, I think they could have passed it without him. He played a more central role in re-passing it, but I'm still betting it would have happened anyway, he just filled the gap first. Still, worth putting on the Resume.

Chandos, don't pretend Obama isn't doing the exact same thing. Neither candidate wants to talk about the economy because neither candidate want's to remind people they voted for the bailout bill. Plus, before the bill, neither candidate seemed to have any clue what to do, and I'm betting that's still the case today. On the economy, they both loose, so they're avoiding it.

 

I understand, NOG - I was just expressing my confusion. We're essentially in agreement, I think.*

Having said that...

I think this may be another case of you having bad information (or at least, evidence that the sources you rely on are highly partisan). First, far from avoiding it, Obama talks about the economy all the time, even post-bailout, just about every time he speaks publicly. It is easily his strongest issue, and his numbers on the handling of the economy are far superior to McCain's (by about +18 points). This is very safe ground for him. Watch a speech or two if you don't believe me. It's the McCain campaign who are desperate to change the subject back to "terrorist pals," a strategy that McCain's own campaign manager specifically admitted.

Second, Obama has been very engaged in fixing this, I would say moreso than many in Washington, for quite some time. Here's a letter he wrote to Bernanke and Paulson in March 2007.

I would say he's had more than a clue for quite some time. You may, like his legislative record, think this doesn't count for anything either, but the record is indeed there.

* Though, with all due respect, it does appear that a pattern is emerging.

NOG: Obama didn't even champion one bill.
Drew: More than one, actually - here's proof.
NOG: So what? They could pass those bills without him.

NOG: She wrote her own great speech.
Me: No she didn't - here's proof.
NOG: So what? Nobody writes their own speeches.

Know what I'm sayin'?

 

I'm not pretending anything except to believe that issues in this election are of paramount concern to voters. That's really a switch, because they are usually more inclined to "entertain" such silly and lowgrade statements like, "so-and-so Pals around with terrorists." Generally American voters like to be entertained along with their politics. A little bit of low-brow theatrics, which plays to the lowest common-denominator, can move the needle a tiny bit in most elections. But the voters know they cannot afford to be so self-indulgent this time around. The stakes are too high for them.

 

The fact that someone would have stepped in and filled his shoes makes the role he played in the bill's passage no less major, NOG. Obama was the chief sponsor of the bill when it came time to renew it, and instead of simply renewing the bill, the second iteration made it permanent.