Israel vs. Hamas

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Well after three days of air assaults it looks like Israel may be finally serious about stopping the rocket attacks that Hamas and friends have been launching from Gaza. Hopefully, Israel will realize that every attempt they have made to appease has never worked and always backfired. In my opinion they shouldn't let up until the rockets stop and then if they start up again so should the airstrikes.

 

Isn't that basically what's been happening for years? Israel attempts to negotiate, it doesn't work, they proceed with a beatdown, eventually settle on a cease fire, go back to negotiating. Lather, rinse, repeat. Or are you just suggesting they get rid of the negotiating part?

 

In a sense, yes. The negotiations have always been one sided as Hamas and friends have never honored them anyway. Israel should take the stand that they aren't stopping until there is 24 hours in which no rockets are launched at them. When that happens then Israel stops. If another rocket is launched then Israel goes back to bombing.

 

The question is, bombing what?

 

Seriously, one should consider what one's own country would do, if facing such a humanity despising ideology as is the extremistic islam.
That is what Israel is confronted with. Most arabic people in the neighborhood want every single Israeli dead, whereas most Israelis would be content if there was just freedom.
If you want to know what islamists would do if they just could, look at the incidents at Mumbay a short time ago.
The Jews were not simply killed, but tortured with a cruelty I can't believe.

 

And the Palestinians are confronted with a bunch of people who have been hated in every nation that they have lived off since time immemorable. Why should the Palestinians be expected to tolerate the Jews taking their land via force, when Europeans couldn't even tolerate them as neighbours? More importantly, if you're so sympathetic towards the innocent Israelis, why don't you let them form a theocratic Jewish only state in your own country, away from all those evil Arabs?

Who can blame them? Jews immigrate to their lands, form elitist communities, boycott native businesses, collaborate with the Ottomans/Turkish Govt. to disenfranchise the Palestinians, use their influence in the U.N to wrangle a Jewish only state on Palestinian homes and gardens, engage in ethnic cleansing, and continue to establish settlements on disputed lands. All while whining about oppression to shut up anyone who is anti-Zionist.

 

Well, Israel is a democracy, a working one to boot. What does you make think
they are theocratic?

I'm surprised on your further comments as they come from an antisemitic mind.

I know my sight of view is one sided as well but I can prove it by what I see in the world.
You don't know how often I heard sentences similars to yours.Mostly from turks, arabs, German Neo-Nazis and even Communists.
So far they are insulting but nothing more.
Can you prove your point?
"forming elitist groups"?, commiting "ethnic cleansing"?
Do you know what ethic cleansing is?
What we Germans did in WW II was ethnic cleansing, what the people in Rwanda did to each other, as well. Or the Serbians to the Bosnians.

But saying the Israeli commit ethnic cleansing is nothing more then pure hatred for the Jews.
Do you say the US people commit ethnic cleansing in their war against terror?
They defend themselves as do the Israeli.
I surely can't understand people like you.

 

Because it's a Jewish state? Because a Holy Land can't be holy without appealing to a deity? Because Jewish law influences civil law?

That's *exactly* what the Jewish immigrants did. They self-segregated, showed a blatant disregard for local laws and customs, and boycotted local businesses. Sound familiar? It should, because that's what Jews tended to do in countries other than Palestine. They did it in Britain, in Spain, in Poland, in Germany, in Russia, in Finland, in India, and in the Middle-East. It's one of the main reasons why everybody got tired of them eventually. They refused to assimilate, and they looked down on the native Europeans as dirty goyim who followed a pagan religion. They weren't all like that, but it was an attitude prevalent in Jewish communities across the world.

I suggest you read up about the kibbutzim, which were essentially little Jewish communes in Palestine.

I know *exactly* what ethnic cleansing is. The Jewish immigrants drove out many Palestinian civilians. You don't think the land was bare before they formed their Jewish state on it, do you? And you don't think all those Palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries just popped out of nowhere?

In most cases, the Jews *dispossessed* the Palestinians living on the land before them. They drove them out, via violence and/or the threat of violence. That's ethnic cleansing.

Of course, that's fine with the West, because finally they are rid of what they considered 'the Jewish pest', while assauging their guilty collective conscience for not really giving a rat's ass about what Germany was doing to the Jews. They passed on the problem to some brown skinned suckers in a backwater of Britain's colonial empire, which was really quite despicable, especially since they had promised that land to the Arabs for their role in the war against the Ottoman's.

What's truly mind boggling is that no other Western nation could pull stunts like Israel does without being universally condemned as racist. If Sweden deemed itself a 'Caucasian state' that openly promoted a white majority demographic and restricted non-white immigration while bulldozing non-white houses and building white settlements in their place, every civilised country would go ballistic.

If the minorities rioted as a result, progressives would be blaming the white overlords for oppressing the immigrants and denying them equal opportunity. Just look at the riots in Sweden, a Swedish landowner couldn't even deny a renewal of a lease to Muslim clergy without having the place burnt and sacked.

Yet Israel gets away with murder (literally), it bombs entire countries into oblivion but doesn't receive nearly the same amount of flak the U.S received for bombing Iraq and Afghanistan, and it certainly gets less criticism than Hamas does when it has the audacity to fire rockets at invaders. Why? Why?! Why the **** is Israel allowed to bomb, murder and annex with impunity?!?

 

Countduckula . . . . . . . . this rant is as stupid as your japanese sweatshop nonsense, just what kind of drugs are you on?
Seriously, i know klansmen that are less antisemitic than you.

 

Was there anything factually inaccurate in my previous posts?

 

Two things: Why does it make him "antsemitic" because he disagrees with the policies of Israel? It's too easy just to dismiss his point of view as simply the ranting of a bigot. His larger point is that the policies in question only sustains the cycle of violence that, as Tal points out, will lead to the destruction of one or both sides. Second, just how many klansmen do you know, Martaug?

 

And is your knowledge of them carnal?

 

Another pointless thread, we won't be getting anywhere. Snook seems to share the sentiments of the people who keep this conflict going, there is no talking, there is only eradication of the enemy. I have said it before and I will say it again, any change, any initative everything need to come from Israel. They are as they so proudly declare at every oppurtunity a free democracy with a working government. The Palestinians are a shattered, destitute, unschooled, half-starved bunch of desperate prisoners without any proper governance or organisation and where many many want to hurt those that have hurt them at any cost even the cost of their own lives. The ball is in the Israeli court, it will always be in their court cause they have made such a good job of shattering the Palestinians very little can be expected of them.

 

No that would be genocide. Ethnic cleansing can be simply ridding a terretory of people by forcing them to flee. Genocide on the other hand means ridding a terretory of people by exterminating them. Ethnic cleansing can also be used on describing genocide but is generally considered more mild as a term.

 

too many people focus on history rather then present, regardless of how Israel came into existence it is here now, and it isnt going anywhere, throwing toys out of your pram isnt going to end the violence.
lots of civilizations could hold historical grudges, but you dont see the Welsh and the Scottish fireing rockets into England for the past, no.

Rockets wont solve their problems, its like punching a doorman, youre going to get your head kicked in. When Hamas put down their weapons, then we can talk.

 

OK, let's talk present. Israel could stop annexing Palestinian land, stop bulldozing Palestinian homes, stop building segregational walls and fences, stop establishing Jewish only settlements on contested lands, stop ignoring settler violence against Palestinians, allow Palestinian refugees a right of return and compensation for being dispossessed, adhere to UN resolutions whether they be binding or non-binding, and treat non-Jewish citizens as equals.

Will they do that? No? Then apparently the Palestinians need some leverage before Israel will engage in fair negotations, and that leverage will come in the form of rockets and grenades.

 

It's interesting that most people seem to think you have to be on one side or the other in this conflict.

I think that both sides share the blame equally. The Hamas because their ideology does not allow them to acknowledge Israel as not going anywhere. Who provokes Israel so long that retaliation is the only option.

And Israel because their only answer is to bomb the Gaza strip, all the while killing women and children along with Hamas members. Sure, the state has to protect it's citizens. But the methods have to be adequate.

The whole situation is also quite ironic because Israel helped building the Hamas as a competitor to the PLO.



@countduckula: That's quite naive. Do you really think that a extremist organization as Hamas will back down? They will stop at nothing to eradicate Israel. It is possible to marginalize it through various political means, yes. It's been done. But the funding out of Iran and other near-eastern states means that they have the money to fight on, and it's ideological roots bring new members into it's arms every day. Also, it is possible that there will be fighters coming from other states in the region in the future, if the membership base erodes.

 

I'm not naive. Hamas is a threat because it has popular support from the Palestinian citizenry. Remove that support, and Hamas will become a fringe group that the Palestinian authorities would hunt down.

 

Hamas are the Palestinian authorities. Israel has so thouroughly radicalized a large chunk of the Palestinian population that it will take a whole lot of goodwill for them to mend the damage they have caused. Nor is there really one Palestinian side, they are fractured and have been played out against each other for so long that it is neigh impossible to get the "Palestinian" to do anything. You might get one fraction to agree to something but all it takes is one loonie for the Israelis to demolish a few more Palestinian neighbourhoods. This is why the responsiblity falls on Israel. They have the tools ability to actually take the moral highground and it is a disgrace that they don't. That they again and again and lower themselves to the same level and often lower than ignorant, rabid, desperate madmen.