21 year old woman auctioning off her virginity

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I'm guessing this is a rhetorical question, but the answer is: you don't want to know. Really.

 

But you could make a similar statement about anything. Health shouldn't be considered a commodity either, but if you're a doctor you are essentially peddling health. Law shouldn't a be a commodity either, but that's what lawyers do.

But my point was not to wax philosophical about the morality of the woman's actions. I was just pointing out that you get better at anything with practice.

Let's take a completely hypothietical example. I have never attempted to grow vegetables in a garden. If I decided to start this year, and continued doing it for the next three or four years, I would assume that the results of my gardening efforts after three or four years would be better than the first year. I would probably get better at planting the seeds with the proper spacing between them, I would find out which plants need more or less water and more or less exposure to sunlight. There wouldn't be anything different about the soil in my yard, or anything intrinsically different about the seeds I put in the ground - the difference would be within me. In short, I would have learned how to perform an action better in the most basic of ways: by actually doing it. This is not some wild theory on my part - learning by doing happens every day, and I doubt sex would be much different than any other action.

 

A guy with an ego that's out of control and money to burn is going to be your most likely candidate. "Deflowering" a virgin is a big rush for some guys.

 

What Marceror said.

 

Which reminds me of a quote I read in a novel some years ago. It went something like this:

As my old pappy used to say about deflowering virgins, "son, if you're not the first, somebody else will be"

DR, I hear what you are saying, but I don't think that my point of view is really unique to me. I would say most people don't view sex as a commodity and would disapprove of this girl's behaviour -- particularily if she were a daughter or family member. The majority of a society determines the prevailing mores of that society. Also, I would argue that just because someone is not religious that does not preclude them from having a moral system *, and most of the modern moral systems of which I am aware frown upon the sale of sex or the treatment of virginity as a commodity.

*this point has been made several times by atheists and agnostics on SP, usually in statements like "just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't have morals or ethics"

 

I see that, LKD. Bear in mind that I'm not "approving" of what she's doing per se, I just refuse to condemn her for it. She's an adult of sound mind, she's not harming or tricking anyone, she stands to gain substantially for it, people out there seem all too willing to participate in her "enterprise," and any declarations that what she is doing is "wrong" or "immoral" are only limited to the subjective point of view of those doing the declaring, since it isn't anyone else's 'virginity' at issue here, just hers. Any girl is free to give her virginity to whomever she wishes.

It is for these reasons that I don't find her behavior to be unethical in any way. There is nothing inherently dishonest or harmful in her actions, and I have no emotional or family attachment to her (and so her decision does not effect me personally), therefore, I have no real problem with it. Whether it is "immoral" or not is based on one's personal value system, and while I agree that your views are not unique, you are far more conservative than the average citizen, and certainly the average 21 year old.

 

That has to be a new high (or low) for the concept of moral relativism. Better yet - "Individualist ethical subjectivism."

 

Explain.

 

Her actions may be harmful towards others (like her own family), or other women, who have no desire to be viewed as "sexual products," but since none of that really matters to you, there's nothing "harmful" in her actions. Since her actions have no impact upon you personally, you don't care, but it's impact upon others has no negative meaning to you - unless it was your own daugther; then she would "be dead." I have no desire to place any judgment upon you in any of this regard, since I'm only surprised by how "subjectively" you view her ethical (or lack of ethical) behavior.

 

No, you raise some good points here. I have to concede that in the larger context, her actions may indeed be harmful in the sense of objectification of women in general and the negative impact this may or may not have on her family, which you're right, I hadn't really considered (since I view her as an independent adult of sound mind). She probably has a father who is balding rapidly as we speak.

I've been viewing this strictly on it's own merits and the base facts of the matter. Viewed within that vacuum, I still contend that she's behaving ethically. But the consequences of this transaction can indeed extend beyond just her own admittedly self-serving agenda (and the real world is no vacuum). I would point out to you though that I noted earlier that my biggest concern is the impact this will have on other impressionable young girls, so I am not so divorced from the specter of unintended consequences here as you seem to think I am.

 

Agreed. Sexual licentiousness generally spreads harm around and especially so when an exchange for economic benefit is involved. I don't want to throw rocks here because I am instantly reminded of the relevant Biblical passage, but it's extremely sad that this day and age has made this kind of thing appear normal, progressive, desirable.

@Aldeth: I'm probably a better flirt than I was several years ago, barring I have more moral inhibitions at this point. In what way does it make me a better person, however?

 

It's an interesting point, CtR. I'm curious, though, what is your stance on the matter? Is her action as bad to you as it would be as if your (hypothetical, if you don't have one) daughter was doing it?

Sorry if I sound confrontational, that is not my intention - I am merely curious.

I don't have a daughter, obviously. But if I had one, I would be indeed guilty of being subjective, And I don't see anything wrong with that - 'tis natural. From a purely pragmatic perspective, why should we care about some random girl who we don't know the same as our family?

 

I couldn't possibly answer this - I only know you through this board, and so it's impossible for me to tell if your skill at flirting has made you a better person. I can only think that you are trying to link my response of becoming better at something the more you do it to becoming a better person. I was in no way implying that.

A doctor who has been practicing medicine for 10 years is probably a better doctor than someone fresh out of medical school, but that doesn't mean the more experienced doctor is a better person - he's just a better doctor because has a deeper and more extensive knowledge of medicine through his experience. Similarly, a lawyer with 10 years expereince in the court room is probably a better lawyer than someone who just passed the bar exam, but that in no way implies that the more experienced lawyer is a better person for the same reason as with the doctor. Finally, a prostitute is probably better able to give a man a more satisfying sexual experience than a virgin, but that doesn't mean the prostitute is a better person.

(As an aside to Deathmage - Chandos has two daughters.)

Ancillary point: I don't think there's anything normal about this, and I certainly don't think there's anything desirable about it either. I will further concede that even though I don't condemn it completely, I would be decidedly more against it if it were my daughter or other family member. So I suppose I'm guilty of moral relativism as well.

 

When my daughter was 21 she could do whatever she wanted. In fact, when she was 18 she could do whatever she wanted. A parent teaches their kids a standard of ethics, but cannot enforce that standard as the children grow up.

My standard of ethics was very simple -- honesty, integrity, and don't hurt others. I never placed emphasis on sex (or abstaining from sex) and I am reasonable certain my daughter had lost her virginity prior to turning 21 -- I don't know because it simply was none of my business after she became an adult (and many would argue it was none of my business before then).

Had she wanted to do something like this I would only have been concerned about the type of men who would bid on someone's virtue. I have found over the years the men who enjoy 'deflowering' women are rarely the ones you want around your daughter -- the men who would brag about such things were quite cruel and delighted in the pain they caused; they even kept 'trophies.'

However, my feeling for my daughter would not have changed had she chosen this path.

On a less serious note, I would have welcomed the financial relief of her college education.

 

Wow T2B! You have adult children? (I knew T3 and T3 v2.0 had sibling(s) who were significantly older, but I didn't know that much older. I thought they were teenagers.) You must be almost as old as Splunge!

 

Aldeth, please. I expect better from you.

NO ONE is that old.

[I'm surprised too, actually - for some reason I'd always thought the T2 brood were all sub-tween.]

 

On my profile page I even state:

Although I was a parent at a young age....

 

DM - I really don't deal with hypotheticals in raising my own daughters, or son, for that matter. I'm a "cross-that-bridge" when I get to it kind of person. Nevertheless, this is not an action I would expect from one of my daughters. Being a good parent means helping your children make good choices, choices that may affect them later in life. A parent tries to look at the big picture when confronted with an issue; kids tend to see what's directly in front of them.

Let me present you with a hypothetical: When this girl has children of her own, will she want to explain to them that in order to pay for her master's degree she had to prostitute herself? Is that a conversation that you would want to have with your children? Or with a potential future husband? Or with your professional colleagues? What's in the back of their minds? that when the chips are down, she's a sellout?

A parent fights a large battle: On the one hand, you try to teach your children about what you think is important; on the other, you want them to develop their own ideas and to make their own choices. In the end, it's all about building a relationship: You may tell them it's a bad idea to become a prostitute, or become an uneducated person (and an education is more than just "getting" a degree); or to have bad personal or social manners; yet at the same time, they may read or see things in the media that causes them to believe that it's "OK" to be those negative things, or that people on the internet will tell them there's "nothing wrong with it." You hope that the relationship you build with them will make them more inclined to consider what you teach them.

 

I see you've been training in the Alley.

But let me rephrase. Being better at something doesn't make you a better person overall necessarily. I have respect for a good baker, a good soldier, a good doctor, a good lawyer (as long as being good doesn't come from being ready to make ethical compromises), a good lecturer, a good teacher, a good engineer and so on and so forth. But for a good sex worker? Or a good amateur sex worker? It's an offence to hard working people to extend the professional standard there.

In purely physical terms. I doubt the kind of prowess you talk about would make any impression on me. So far, professionalism in sex, or large amateur experience, only manages to put me off and cause me pain and sadness as I look at the individual.