Another immigration discussion

Remove all ads!

This thread is an outgrowth of the British election thread, which has gone off on a discussion of the BNP, which is partially my fault. But I want to take the discussion in a different direction by talking about immigration policies in Western Democracies. I will focus on Canada, as that is where I live, but I think what I have to say is applicable to many Western Democracies.

First of all, I acknowledge that all people who are living on the North American continent who are not Natives (Aboriginals, First Nations, Indians if you are unenlightened, Indigenous peoples, call them what you will) are immigrants. If the Alaska land bridge theory is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), then even the Natives are descendents of immigrants.

I also acknowledge that when European explorers and settlers came to the Americas, they dealt very poorly with the aforementioned Natives.

That said, those Europeans proceeded to build nations that are powerful, democratic, and quite egalitarian. While those countries are by no means perfect, they have a lot going for them. It took a lot of hard work and sacrifice to build those countries, and a culture and traditions were born.

I shall now switch to focus on Canada. We have a great country. A lot of people want to come here and live here despite the freaking cold. Let me make it clear that I have no problem with that. Hell, I make my living teaching these people the English language so that they can succeed here.

What I do have a problem with is that once some of these people are here, they pull out a list of changes that we must make to accomodate them. If the descendants of the people who built this great and attractive nation do not immediately kowtow to their every whim, words and phrases like "racist", "bigot", "neanderthal", "redneck", "doesn't like brown people", "intolerant" and such start getting thrown around with wild abandon.

These few immigrants claim they are defending their culture and values. That's great. More power to them. But why is it that as soon as a white person does the same thing out come the discussion killer terms? I respect other cultures and have learned a lot about them, though I could learn a lot more. But I also value my culture, and when people start urinating on it or telling me that loving my heritage is "ethnocentric" I start to get hostile. And when people from other countries come here and commit crimes, then claim to be being persecuted because in their countries their crime is legal, I get livid. We have enough criminals here of European heritage (my idiot brother in law springs to mind) that we don't need any more.

Most immigrants fit in and do not cause problems. I know that -- like I say I work with them and they are awesome people. I would even go so far as to say that we need them to help our country grow and develop.

But wanting to slam the door on agitators, criminals and people who flat out don't even try to understand let alone respect the culture that is sheltering them is not racist. It's common effing sense. The Natives would have done the same thing had they had the ability. Canada has the ability, as do other western democracies, but it seems that they don't have the will.

Saying this does not make me a racist. I reject that epithet as applied to anyone in the absence of a statement that claims superiority of white people over all others and supports violence against people based solely on their skin. I believe the word is a convenient tool for some to shut down discussion, and wish that its use would acquire the same stigma online as that attached to "Nazi", wherein the person who invokes it on an opponent is deemed to already have lost the argument.

 

To put it simply no nation should ever allow someone to immigrate to their country unless that person is willing to give up their former country and culture. This is what is destroying Western Europe and the southwestern United States.

 

I'm still a little curious about how one goes about giving up his culture in a nation with no national religion, no real history of cultural uniformity, and no national language. If you are talking about declaring a national language and requiring all immigrants to learn and speak it, that's one thing, but you can't ask them to abandon their culture for a very simple reason. Americans who were born in the USA can and do take up new faiths, new clothing styles -- many American Muslimas wear a head-scarves, for example, and one of the girls I went to high school with even converted and now wears a hijab -- and new value systems. Unless we plan to take the right to stray from cultural norms away from regular American citizens, we have no right to ask immigrants to "conform" to our non-conformist culture...but you're right that they should at least learn English.

 

I don't know about giving up ones culture -- we are supposedly tolerant of all sincere belief systems. But they must be willing to make reasonable changes and live within the norms of the society that allowed them to come in. If their goal is to undermine, change, alter, disrupt, or disrespect the culture or law of their hosts, I believe they should be sent back to the country from which they originated. And that applies to whites, blacks, browns, yellows, Muslims, Christians, Ba'Hai, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Shintos, Wiccans, and any other group. Across the effing board. That's equality, the very antithesis of racism or bigotry.

 

What?

 

Hey, good to see you back, Barmy.

 

I fully agree with LKD. It's wonderful that immigrants want to honour their former life in a foregin land, my Polish grandfather always did, but once you pledge allegiance to the flag, US law overrides all. Our laws are moral and ethical(for the most part) and shouldn't impact their former cultures. And if they do, it's probably because they are IMmoral and UNetheical. We, as Americans and Canadians, have developed our own culture since the days of Revolution from European Kings and if you want to move here, adjust and thrive or go home. That simple.

 

Barmy, I think what he is referring to is people who come to a country and claim that they want to live there. They even will take out citizenship in that country, taking an oath of allegiance or fealty or some such. But their oaths are lies, and their true allegiance is to their country of origin. They act in ways that are totally detrimental to the weal of their adopted country, not really becoming productive citizens but rather "citizens of convenience". These are undesireable immigrants.

And I'm not talking about people who come here, work hard and send money home. IMHO, it's their money and they have every right to do whatever they want with it. But if they break our laws, or start trying to tell us that we must change our laws, traditions and culture to become more like their country of origin (and tell us that if we don't we're racist) I have no time for them, and if they want things to be like they were back in their country of origin, they are welcome to return there and leave us alone.

I am very interested in learning new things about other cultures, and even adopting things that I feel are beneficial to me (I love lots of foreign foods!) but I am utterly unintersted in adopting things just because I am told to or changing my culture and traditions to suit relative newcomers.

Every country in the world has an immigration policy and a cap on the number of immigrants it will accept. Why? Because they know that unrestricted immigration can severely strain the social fabric of a community and result in hardship for all the people involved. What I believe that Snook is referring to in the SW US is that the flood of illegal exican immigrants is causing hardship there for the legal citizens as well as the illegal immigrants.

As for Western Europe, you have lots of immigrants coming in who do not share the values of the host country and then demanding drastic changes. I know that these changes are uncomfortable for some. These people who feel uncomfortable are not merely "racists" but people who feel their culture and values are being threatened. God knows if you threaten the cutlure of one of the immigrants you are a horrible bigot, but peeing on the culture that made the society that you fouind attractive enough to move to? Totally acceptable, right? Wrong. I admit that some of the statements these threatened people make are really ignorant and vicious, but that's what happens when you strike at someone's culture and values.

 

It sounds a bit far right and nationalist to me. Why should anyone have to take an oath of allegiance to work in another country? Seems a bit extreme. I can't fault anyone who keeps to their roots and still loves their country of origin. Nor do I know of anyone who demands that we change to match them, they just wish to be able to practice their own traditions and and cultural.. stuff. It's their right, surely. There's nothing wrong with a multi-cultural society. When a country starts saying 'if you come here you have to be exactly like us', it starts sounding a bit.., I won't say fascist but intolerant, isolationist (is that a word?) and not healthy.

The world would be better off without boundaries IMO.

Hi Chandos :-) muchos love

 

I think the problem lies when they move to a country and demand the laws change for them. Or that government provides for them while they do not work or attempt to fit into society in any way.

I think it is fair that if a family decides to move to another country they should learn the language, find work and obey the laws as they would in their own country.

It is just rude to move to another country, refuse to communicate in the local tongue, live off government payout and demand changes made to make the new country 'more like home' it seems pointless to have moved in the first place.

 

Honestly, how many people like that exist? Not many I would wager, I would guess the percentage isn't any higher than "natives" who fail at school, never get a job and expect everyone else to take care of them.

 

Doesn't mean I have to like what they do either

In england at least, there are a fair amount of both parties, however, and many of them are both blatent and vocal - THAT is what winds up those who work hard, act lawfully and make an effort to fit in well with their neighbourhood.

 

You'd be amazed at how many people like that there are. When I worked in a call centre I used to get people ringing me saying that because we were following standard debt collection proceedures to get the money they owed us we were racist.

 

I'm not talking about people who come merely to work, although I expect them to show respect to the country wherein they live and miore importantly follow the laws thereof. If they don't, they should be deported.

I was referring to people who come and CHOOSE to become citizens of a country. They stand in front of a judge and make a solemn promise to be Canadian citizens. they pass tests before doing this to show that they understand exactly what they are doing. Then they proceed to start complaining and trying to change the country that gave them succor, often behaving in an atrociously superior, sanctimonious fashion, and all the while keeping the race card really close to play against anyone who dares to say "the system was working just fine before you came here, we don't see a need to change it for no other reason than to satisfy you."

I have no problem with the things you are mentioning here, Barmy -- I'm talking about violating established laws in the name of "keeping to roots" and "loving country of origin", or trying to change OUR traditions (forcing us to change our roots, as it were) in the name of political correctness.

You seem an intelligent fellow, Barmy -- if you were to visit a foreign country, they would expect you to make an effort to conform to local law and custom as much as possible, and you would do them that courtesy. I'm saying that western democracies should demand the same courtesy from relative newcomers.

joacqin, there's more of them than you seem to think, though there are likely fewer than the nationalist right wing nutjobs claim exist.

Silvery has it right on the head -- attempting to get out of paying debts that have been lawfully incurred by playing the race card is repugnant and should not be tolerated. And I don't bloody well care if they didn't know what they were signing. They knew when they came here that the language of everyday life is English. Make an effort to learn it or suffer the consequences, but they should not act as if they are entitled to special privileges.

I teach ESL to recent immigrants. Many are hardworking people and I gladly give references for them when employers call me. They will be a credit to Canada and their own heritages. I love these people and am not ashamed to say it.

HOWEVER, some (not just a few) are also here in my English class only because the government offers them living expenses for 30 months while they try and learn English. They don't give a damn about learning English or contributing to Canadian society. All they do is whine that the government doesn't pay enough or for long enough. They only want directions to the nearest welfare office for after their 30 months is up. The first phrase they learn is "it's not fair". They criticize my country and my culture, and it is very easy to see that they have zip, zero, zilch respect for Canada. All the while Canada is funding and helping them. It nauseates me to the core. I would hazard that every culture has a saying similar to "you don't bite the hand that feeds you" but these people don't seem to have heard of that concept. I hate these people and am not afraid to say it.

This is not a knee jerk reaction to something I saw while driving on the street. I work with these immigrants 5 days a week. I'm by no means anti-immigration, I'm just pro-common sense. Throw open the doors to people who commit to show respect to the country. Let a million more come in. But slam the door hard on criminals and freeloaders and those who want to remake Canada in the image of their home country. And for those here illegally, throw them out so hard that they bounce twice.

 

Here is the point of view of an American living in Sweden.

 

Curious article there, Snook. I was just posting, asking for sources, so it seems you've read my mind

I think this article has found the key problem in many immigration systems. It's not in the fact that these people want to hold on to their culture - culture is something that should be cherished and having different cultures really adds a lot to a community - it's the breakdown in the system that is meant to prepare these people for work and to get them to a stage where they can contribute to society.

The article quotes that 80% of refugees, after two and a half years, are not self-sufficient. I know in New Zealand, talking to some refugees around the place in lower-paid jobs (cleaners, taxi drivers, etc) and it's amazing some of the qualifications these people had back home - often these are amazingly hard working, really intelligent people, who cannot fully contribute because the system will not let them. For these people who have studied medicine at Islamabad university, we should be going that extra step to bring their education across to our standards so they can contribute. I would be willing to bet my left arm that most of these 80% of refugees, while not Doctors, are able and willing to contribute to society - they are just not given the opportunity to.

Keep in mind, as well, that in a large number of western democracies, immigration is vital to keeping the country a live. Austria, for example (the first one on the list looking down alphabetically), if no migration happened, would have a negative growth rate. It is this migration that pushes Austria out of the red numbers. And Austria is not alone in this situation. More and more of these western democracies are becoming more and more reliant on immigration, United States and Canada included. While these latter two do not yet have a declining growth rate (and the key word there is YET), it's well established that the population is aging. Should you want the same standard of living you have now, in the future, either your population needs to start reproducing more or else immigrants become vital.

In New Zealand politics, this whole catch is one of the things I've always found amusing. There is one party in particular (lost their seats last year, luckily) who has a habit of promising to (a) cut back immigration, and (b) increase our standard of living. Given that our country (like most western democracies, I'd imagine) has a shortage of many of the educated professional occupations, things simply do not work like that.

I always find it fascinating the different ways that nations work to integrate immigrant populations. It's amazing seeing the variety of ways used to achieve different set goals, and the success at which they meet. I read a really interesting article put out by PEW a few years ago, looking at the French immigrant integration process.

 

Correct. My only problem with this type of statement is that it doesn't mention what type of immigration a country needs. For a country to remain vibrant I don't think they need to keep importing day laborers.

In my office about 30% of the employees are immigrants from Europe, India, or Asia. They are all highly educated and very motivated. They are constantly working to improve their "English skills" and are all extremely productive members of our firm and our society. Half of them have already become citizens of the United States. All of them are blending into the "great melting pot" that is our culture. All of them are very well paid. All of them had to go through significant hurdles to come here (Apparantly, you have to win a lottery to get a visa), and they are probably the most hardcore group I have ever met against illegal immigration because of it. These people are what Western nations need.

Western nations need to secure their borders to make sure only the people they want/need are allowed entry. They need to stop making it easy for people who do not want to assimilate to stick around. By this, I'm talking about ending public assistance relatively quickly. The last piece of public assistance they should get should be a ticket back home with a "sorry it didn't work out for you" notice. When you give people a safety net and promise to take care of them, they lose the incentive to actually take care of themselves.

 

I don't agree with this 100% and could nitpick, but it's overall very well said I think and helps me understand your position much better.

 

I agree with LKD and others, but I think we need to define a few distinctions. There's a lot to culture and tradition, and it gets complicated. Some areas are mutually exclusive, if you have it one way you can't have it another, while other areas are not. For example, food is not mutually exclusive. I love the multicultural food the US has. I love tacos, sushi, and even the occasional gyro. If anyone tried to pass a law saying cheeseburgers and pizza were the only types of restaurants legal in the US, I would call them idiots. On the other hand, issues of law tend to be mutually exclusive. Honor killings may be legal (or at least accepted) in Iraq, but they aren't in the US, and any immigrant into the US needs to recognize that and adapt. You can't respect both cultures here, you have to choose one, and preference has to go to the established local culture of the majority.

On other issues, things get a little complicated. English is the language of the US by a VAST majority, it's even considered the unofficial language of the nation, but it isn't our official language, we don't have an official language. Nonetheless, I expect any immigrant wanting to live and work in the US, even if only temporarily, to make a real effort to learn english. If their english is terrible, I can forgive them, and I can help them learn by practicing with them and correcting them, but if their english is nonexistant, they have intentionally given up on the majority of US society, and must be ready for the majority of US society to give up on them. That being said, once the immigrants know english, I have no problem with them speaking spanish, french, chinese, or arabic to anyone who knows that language, or with teaching those languages to their children. English should be a capability, because whether it's the legally official language or not, it is the only language of the majority of citizens; but it should not be a requirement (i.e. you have to use it all the time).

I recently played an MMO where the servers, game language, and majority of players were American, english, and english speakers. We had a large number of players from other nations, though, and I often passed two or three players in a town or city who were speaking something I didn't recognize (often, I couldn't even make a guess at the language). I have no problem with this. There were other players, however, who seemed to think that, just because the servers were based in the US, english should be the only language used in-game. Even a few GMs seemed to think that, even after the parent company (a chinese company) corrected them. These people bother me.

 

I have to say the argument about checking people at borders to see if they want to work or contribute to a country's infastructure is futile, there are people already born in this country that do that without having to be an imigrant (UK), people grow up and then realise they don't need a job to survive so the argument can never steer away from being a purely racist remark. The other thing I've always noticed is that people that come and live in this country bring a whole range of cultures that most people will never live to see and for a country that lacks so much if anyone ever turned around to them and asked them to "give up their culture" would make me sad to call my self british, through out most of our history of being invaded time and time again our entire culture has changed, diversed and evolved overtime, I think most people in this country are more scared to experience a new type of culture and make up the excuse that "theirs" is being taken away. If anything I respect people that can come to anothers country and be proud of where they came from without falling into a gel that most western societies force them into just to bulken the countries workforce.