Illegal immigrants

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As an outgrowth of the discussion in other threads, I want to open up the can of worms that has to do with people who are in the US (and other countries) illegally. I assume that most of the discussion will focus on the Mexicans in the US, but the problem is certainly more widespread than that.

IMHO, if you are here and you did not obtain the proper papers to be here and doing what you are doing, you are a criminal. You might have a million excuses, but you are still a criminal. You jumped a line, and we all learn in kindergarten that "butting" is wrong and unacceptable.

We need to punish these criminals, I don't care what their excuses are.

 

I agree completely.

From a theoretical perspective, I agree with this thought, but on a realistic level, it's simply not practical. There are an estimated TEN MILLION illegal immigrants in the US. The financial requirements of actually trying to round up these people and deport them, at a time when we have a struggling economy, a housing crisis, record deficits, and a health care reform plan that may compound at least two of the aforementioned issues, would simply be reckless and a poor use of what appear to be very limited funds.

And even if you could do all that, there is currently no system in place capable of stopping them from coming right back over. If the US was actually good at keeping illegals out, there wouldn't be 10 million of them here in the first place. Before you can deal with the immigrants that are here, you must first do something about stopping more from coming in. You plug the hole in the boat before you start bailing water.

So what then? Imprison them? Resource intensive and economically unsustainable. If you have an idea of how to deal with this issue where the cost of getting rid of them is cheaper than the cost of keeping them, I'm all ears. Everyone agrees that criminal should be punished, so I find it strange that you frame the debate in that context. The question is not "Should we?" - that's a sophmoric platitude. The question is at best "Can we?" and if so, "How?"

 

My cousin just got her green car so tough luck for you Another relative of mine ran from Romania with his wife in late 70's but he might just have worked on the black marked and had political asylum .

 

Immigration control in the UK is a joke.

They have to find the persons passport to send them back where they came from, if they cant find it they cant deport that person, instead the illegal has to sign in weekly at an office, most of course abscond.

 

You're right hun, it's a joke here in the UK. A friend of mine is on the dole but wants to set up his own painting and decorating business. He can't drive and has asked the job centre for help in paying for his lessons. He was told that if he had emigrated here as an asylum seeker, they would have paid for his lessons and test but as he was a British citizen, he had to sort it out himself with no help!

 

There is only way that appears to be effective in combating illegal immigration. There has to be laws and severe (almost draconian) penalties on employers for the hiring of illegal aliens. I believe that Arizona has been leading the country in this. What they in essense have done is rather then sending nuisance fines to employers after a certain amount of offenses (and it isn't a lot) they will actually pull your business license and effectively shut down your operation.

I should clarify, they aren't just looking at the payroll records as most illegals are being paid under the table. They are looking at all sorts of stuff. There have been visits to factories, construction sites, farms, etc. I have been told of "tax audits" in which they are going through the cash disbursements and questioning why there are checks made out to "Cash" and all sorts of other disbursements. From people I know it has really changed the way a lot of places do business.

As you can imagine this is terrifying to a business owner that they could lose everything all because they tried to save a couple of bucks by hiring illegals. I was at a real estate seminar in Phoenix AZ in November of 2008 and it was a major topic of discussion that this law was crippling the "apartment rental" business in AZ as the illegals were either moving back to Mexico or were heading towards California (which I'm sure CA officials were thrilled about).

This article states that the illegal population in AZ may have gone down by 1/3. While not perfect it is a great start.

This type of program needs to be done on a national basis. There are already federal laws on the books that require you to provide a SS# and proof of ability to work to get a job. The IRS can assess large penalties for failure to do so, but a law that isn't enforced is essentially useless (kind of reminds me of the provision in the health care bill that illegals are not to be a part of, but there is no provision for enforcement of it).

Illegals are not here for the "freedoms of American", they are here to work and for money. If the work and money disappear so will they. It really is that simple.

 

And as long as Americans continue to eat fruit, vegetables, and corn (which is in everything), they will not disappear because they are the migrant workers who pick it all.

 

No, they will be picked by legal migrant workers who will be paying taxes. Yes, it will raise the cost of goods, but I'm not convinced that labor is/was the major cost of those goods anyway.

 

I agree with this completely Snook. No, don't do a double take - I really just said that.

I love this approach because unlike most opposing arguments we hear these days about illegal immigration, this is a solution that aims to combat a cause of illegal immigration (why they're coming here), not a symptom (the problems they create once they're here). That US businesses hire illegals is not the entirety of our immigration problems, but it's certainly a large part of it. And I've always believed that if the incentive for businesses to hire illegals is either nullified or removed altogether, the trend will begin to reverse itself. And if you can enforce severe penalties for those businesses that do hire illegals, others will be dissuaded. I sympathize with the labor costs some companies are faced with, but IMO they are creating larger problems for our country as a whole by saving a few bucks per hour/per worker. I also sympathize with the immigrants who simply want a better life, but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about attaining citizenship. They are only making things harder for immigrants who are trying to become Americans through proper channels.

I think companies who want to hire immigrants from Mexico should only be allowed to do so if they help those immigrants attain citizenship. But perhaps that's another topic...

 

It is only the produce grown here in the US they are picking, we import a ton of it as well. Over 57% consumed daily in the US was the amount stated at the last CBP seminar I was at last year.

 

I think it's important to note how much our food costs would go up if we suddenly deported all the illegals on American soil who are picking fruits and vegetables for the American food supply. We would be forced to hire natural-born citizens, who would demand wages exponentially higher than the illegals are more than happy to accept (benefits too, probably). We would also import a great deal more fruits and vegetables, further increasing costs and weakening our own economy.

So while I recognize the problem and don't think people should be breaking the law, I have to take an honest look at the reality of our food supply and realize that it may be a necessary evil to a certain degree. That's my view, anyway. That's why I try to focus my attention on better ways to deal with the situation, not eliminate it entirely. I think deporting all of them would do more harm than good in a lot of ways.

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Just another thought too...

When was the last time you saw a white guy mowing his own lawn? Here in the Houston suburbs, I don't see it much anymore. Get rid of all the illegals, and the costs of grounds-keeping, especially in the southern and coastal states, would go through the roof. Many would stop paying for it altogether. So this leaves two options: people once again purchasing lawn mowers and weed eaters and doing it themselves (which would boost the economy in equipment and fuel purchases) and people foregoing lawncare altogether (since they'd removed yard care from their routines) and thereby lowering property values for themselves and their neighbors.

Then there's the meat supply. I don't have any handy figures, but most meat-packing plants hire large numbers of illegal immigrants. If they suddenly were forced to restaff legal citizens, the cost of a steak would triple and McDonalds would probably go out of business. Ok, bad example...I consider that a plus. But you get my meaning, I think.

 

My wife's family are farmers from Wisconsin. Cattle, Dairy, Crop. Some of them have Organic fields, some don't. All of them complain that they can't get American help at the wages they can afford to pay out. Most of their kids don't want to continue on the tradition. They say it is squeezing them out. They are right. They are getting killed not just by the Big Corps but also because of agreements like NAFTA, that make it easier to import into the US market and sell cheaply, hurting our own farmers who can't get cheap labor unless they use illegals. It is a problem. It's forcing the small farmer to use illegals or to sell to the Big Corps who use the illegals anyway. It is a trend that won't see an end until all of the small farmers are gone. By removing the illegals from the picture, the Big Corps will be forced to hire American to thrive, allowing the the small Farmer to get back into the picture.

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I disagree on some of those points DR. If we have to hire our own, it will force the lazy american to change his way. For ex. What do you pay for ground beef per lbs.? Most lazy americans buy it from the store. But even in suburban areas, you have access to farmers who are only an hour away. I just bought a 1/4 beef that filled my freezer. The average price per lbs.? Just above a $1.50 per lbs. $103 for proccessing and 212 lbs at a dollar a pound for the meat itself. Find that at Sams' Club or Costco. That includes the T-Bone, Porterhouse, Sirloins, Top and Bottom Roasts and Groundbeef. The meat prices will rise at 1st, definitely not tripling, that's absurd.

Their lawns go the same way. They would just have to do it themselves and cut out the cost. Other industries fall into the same line. We are just too damn lazy here, that is why prices are rising. We are a big, fat lazy nation. The Vampires of the Earth. We need to re-learn how to do things for ourselves.

 

Aside from the bristling I tend to do when I see the word "simple" used to describe an issue as complicated as illegal immigration or when someone states that there is only one way to mitigate a problem (there's only one best way -- and I agree that cracking down on employers is that best way -- but there are always other methods, even for illegal immigration), I've agreed wholeheartedly with your assertions in this thread prior to this post, and I agree with the main thrust of this post as well. However, you make an implication here that is simply not true. If we crack down on employers, a measure I also support, legal migrants would indeed be picking our vegetables, but your (possibly unintentional) implication that illegals don't pay taxes is demonstrably false. Most illegals do, in fact, pay taxes on their income.

 

Every weekend - I do it myself. Granted, I don't have a huge yard. Mowing, weed-whacking and edging can all be accomplished in about two hours.

 

I mow my lawn with a push mower, it's 1 and 7/8 of an acre. To mow and trim, it takes me a little over 2 and 1/2 hours. Most people don't have yards as big as mine. My cost is gas and the mower and the trimmer. Basically, not much.

 

@ Blades & Aldeth,

I did qualify my statement with 'Here in the Houston suburbs...' I've no doubt there are crackers like yourselves out there whackin' your own weeds. And there are some that do it in my neighborhood, too. My point was that the sight I was used to growing up - the dad or eldest teenage sun spending half his sunday pushing a mower - isn't nearly as common a sight these days.

What you just described would be considered manual labor by - and therefore, beneath - the average upper-middle-class American male. Such men would consider those 2-3 hours every weekend better spent on leisure, and they can afford to have Juan and Julio (as they're referred to by my dad) do the yard for them. In fact, in nearly every modest-to-affluent neighborhood in our society today, I think it's almost expected that you don't have to do your own yard since some Mexican will do it for peanuts.

People complain about illegal immigrants, but taking advantage of illegal immigrants has unfortunately become another part of the American way of life. It won't be easily removed, no matter the hooting and hollering about it.

Now this I agree with. We are lazy turds. No argument from me. It's embarrassing.

 

Hey, HEY, HEY! That kind of stuff belongs in the MUG.

Nearly everyone in my neighborhood mows their own lawn. The lots are 1-2 acres and the lawn mower serenade starts at 8AM on Saturdays. There are a few hispanic families so I guess you can see some yards not mowed by crackers.

 

Perhaps that's a north vs. south, humid vs. arid climate distinction, T2. When I lived in Chicago most people did their own lawns in my neighborhood, too. But then they only had to worry about mowing their lawns for half of the year, and didn't have to deal with 100% humidity and giant bugs. Down here we get that.

P.S. - MUG?

 

Whackin your own weeds! Nice!

But of course it's manual labor, but a good kind, not heavy construction work. You get to catch some sun, not kill yourself and avoid the wife and kids and have some peace. What more could a guy ask for?

Seriously though, just having the "Mexican do it for peanuts" is the going to bite us all in the arse down the road, as it is starting to already. Unfortunately, many are too lazy to look that far. It's pathetic, lazy and leads us down a very bad path as a whole. I love all of the extras our society has to offer, but I don't abuse it. Too many do these days and it will sink this ship eventually. Were going to have to cut back a bit these days, we can't keep our hand out, expecting the Gov to give us everything. It's just plain old common sense.

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Remeber, you CHOOSE to live there. Move to a place where there is a nicer climate and less bugs if that's the excuse.

MUG - It's a (IM)Mature group in the social forums.

 

Blades, that's not remotely the point. This isn't an issue for me - I don't even have a lawn. And if I did, I'd mow it myself. The point is, in the part of the country I live, paying illegals to do such work is far more common than in your or T2's neck of the woods because it's considered more of a sh*t job. I grew up in Utah and didn't mind mowing the lawn in the summer, because summer weather is pleasant there. Here it's intolerable for more than 20 minutes. 110 in the shade and 100% humidity is an average July day here. People pass out from heat stroke here all the time. And no one is going to move because they don't like mowing their lawn, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make there.