Ultimate Tank

Remove all ads!

Then the game is broken. But it's widely known that Infinity Engine games distinguish between melee round, and spellcasting round. From Planescape: Torment all the way to Icewind Dale 2, your character is free to make another non-casting action as soon as a spell is cast.
I would hardly even call is a game exploit, as it's an integral part of the game environment.
IE games and tabletop D&D are worlds apart anyway: D&D game rules take up gigabytes as pdf-files alone. My powergaming advice is worthless for real D&D, because I fail to take all the possibilities into consideration.

 

Hurt? Whom? Being right next to untouchable doesn't require a lot of hitpoints to compare favorably to a normal warrior tank that gets hit a lot. Plus the rest of your gang most certainly enjoys the lodestone weighing the party's average level downward, ie. getting more exp for kills for longer.

Sure, that's an option, and rather nice one on paper. BUT. That'll either make you play through 99% of the game with 20% experience penalty or make you miss the WIS quest bonus. Monk doesn't allow for free multiclassing so you'll have to take the Banite level first or last.

You make it sound like you'd trade monk's +6 generic to cleric's +1 extra deflection. That's not the whole story. You'll lose +1 generic as soon as you take a mix-in with a monk (you can't reach level 30 monk anymore), with the already mentioned difficulties with exp penalty. Also, as soon as your cleric level is 18 or above, the 2nd level spell Draw Upon Holy Might will enhance your cleric's dexterity by more than any other spell or item will which will further reduce the monk's advantage.

If you're only interested in AC and ignoring any other considerations, you can actually make it well into the 80's, but such characters tend to get overspecialized and lose too much in playability for little gain in extra protection. Remember that 72 AC is all you'll ever need, as that'll cover ya against the toughest regular baddies, the Slayer Knights of Xvim.

 

Coin - Wow! If that is the case, the game is truly broken. That puts spellcasters way above and beyond non-spellcasters. The game system(D&D) they are using balances out and they take it away by allowing spellcasting and all attacks in the same round? Knowing this, that changes everything. Clerics become by far the best tankers then. What a game-breaking rule change. Apparently they didn't think of the D&D fan when making that change.

But here's a question. You said spellcasters can make another non-spellcasting action as soon as a spell is cast. Are they just making one attack as this action or using all of their attacks if high-level enough as this action?

 

Well, if a cleric is badly wounded at the end of its round, it can cast Heal instantly. Since I have 'autopause: spell cast' active, the game is paused the moment the spell is cast. This allows me to retarget the clerics attacks immediately. If the cleric had 3 attacks/round, I'm pretty sure it still has all 3 attacks. Even if it lost a fraction of time in the casting, then it won't be the first attack that is lost (the one with the full attack bonus), but just the third attack that is marginally delayed.

P.S. Even non-casters can take advantage of this game exploit, if they use items. It's just not as efficient, because there's no autopause.

 

Casters take a round for what we call aura cleansing, so they can't just cheesily cast all the time (think improved alacrity). The mind can rest while you clobber someone with a stick.

 

This is true, but most of those bonuses can be given to anyone, and we want the person with the most edge, right? So, if you can have an attack bonus of +25 or one of +32, which do you pick? HP also matters, and that's not so class independant.

This is also true, but, for the majority of buff spells, things like DC and hit dice don't matter. Shield is Shield no matter who casts it. So is bless. And again, most of the ones that do care about caster level (Barkskin, Stoneskins, etc) can be cast on someone else. Quantity may be an issue, but if we're only talking about the self-cast only spells, that really limits the concerns.

One, I never said that casters and their attack spells were the way to go. Not once. Not even close. I said a good decoy could free up any other team member for doing anything, be it spellcasting, backstabbing, or general melee. As long as all or almost all enemies are attacking the decoy, everyone else can do whatever they want.
Two, I'm still not seeing how a cleric can make up for the +6 AC a Monk gets, especially since Generic AC is the only kind to stack.

While it's very well written and comprehensive, the bulk of your arguement seems to be "Clerics get buff spells". Honestly, how many of the best buff spells of each category are caster only?

I see:
Aegis (for Helm, +2 saves, +5 deflection, and Stoneskin)
Antimagic Field (if you only want to buff/heal self)
Armor of Faith (+1/- damage reduc, may help if stacked with other stuff, but there are also potions for it)
Blur (Mask only, 20% evasion, Improved Invisibility is better and can be cast on others)
Circle of Blades/Bones (imobilizes caster, I don't like that)
Death Armor (1d4+5 dmg?)
Divine Shell (+6 deflection, 10/- elemental resistance?, +2 to saving throws)
Holy Might (Str bonuses don't stack, is this the best?)
Impervious Sactity of Mind (status immunity)
Iron Body (now this sounds nice:50/+3 damage reduc, 50% acid resistance, immunity to electricity, immunity to body-altering spells, +6 Str, unfortunately, it's -6 Dex and gives 80% spell failure, and it's only for Helm)
Mirror Image (Mask only)
Seven Eyes (Helm only and doesn't seem that great to me)

Now, some of those are some really nice spells, but I don't see any that really beat a monk's bonus to AC except maybe Iron Body. Worse, of the 11 spells there, 5 of them (including Iron Body) are only domain spells, and none are Banite.

Now, compare that for a second to Wizards/Sorcerers:
Aegis
Antimagic Field
Blink (50% evasion and blindfight doesn't help against it)
Blur
Death Armor
Decastave (1d2 healing per hit, and can exceed max HP)
Fireshield (50% fire/ice resistance)
Iron Body
Mindblank (status immunity)
Mirror Image
Shield (+7 armor and +3 reflex, though there are potions and items)
Tenser's Transformation (+1D6 max HP, +4 generic armor, +2d4 Str and Dex, +1 base attack per two levels, and +5 on fortitude saves)
Trollish Fortitude (regen 5 Hp per rouns)
Vampiric Touch (can heal up to 10d6 damage, going over max HP)

That's 14 spells, and IMO more than a few better spells (Tenser's Transformation is beastly, Blink looks awesome, Shield is great, etc). Best of all, any Wiz/Sorc can get all of them.

Now, it's true that they can't cast Heal, which is a very nice addition for a Decoy, but again, it doesn't quite seem to make up for it, especially if you can have a cleric with Heal on the front lines just behind the decoy.

Yeah, but it'll hurt your saving throws, and if you're relying on this guy for melee attacks, it'll hurt. Endgame those may not matter as much (since you have the rest of your party at high levels, too), but earlier on, it can be a killer.

Or, play as a Drow female (+2 dex and spell resistance, and free longsword proficiency, but -2 ECL) or a human (1 extra feat, no ECL). Does anyone else get cleric as favored class? The experience penalty can be avoided.

That's true, it's +5 instead of +6, but I think the Wisdom bonuses from having a level of Banite more than make up for that.

That's a max of +10? Very nice. Twice what the best equipment I've seen ccan give you. Will your clerif be able to use it, though? I don't think any armors will let you use more than a +6 Dex bonus, which is only 22 Dex, and if you're giving up armor then you're loosing +6-11 AC for a +5 dex AC bonus. Plus, you've probably been sinking your stat points into Str, Con, or Wis, with Dex not more than 14 or so, so that's still not all that impressive.

This is true, and raises a question: how easy is it to get to 72? Will you be squeezing out all you can get from everything you have, spells included, or could this maximized AC bonus character reach it with only one or two spells to back him up?

 

They can't, I wasn't arguing that. Only noting that while a monk gets +6 generic on the word go, he loses out elsewhere so one can't argue that monks have straight +6 AC compared to clerics.

It's three levels at most, which is negligible compared to the advantages you get by combining high AC and SR. And now you're contradicting yourself -- the damage output didn't matter, right?

No, it can't, unless you want to lose the +4 AC bonus from being a deep gnome. And yes, that's about as huge of an advantage as it gets.

Eh.. Yes, being at least part-time Banite is a bonus, but don't you think the Banite cleric (with the one monk level as a mix-in) gets that as well?

No no no, the cleric uses the same armor as the monk - nothing except for the ones created by spells.

I'd suggest you read the chapter about Armor Class in general in the JUPP guide I mentioned. Since you can get to 88 AC with all the bells and whistles on and 80 without even using Tenser's Transformation, there's a fair bit of customization room. IMHO the best alternative is to drop the AC buffs that are hardest to keep up on everyday basis - Cleric of Helm's +2 AC buff (once a day, yuck) and 11th level Bard song are usually the first ones to go when I personally plan around it. Also, the helm requiring Rogue levels is a pain in some cases but you CAN still get to 72 without it.

 

Not so much didn't matter as was a secondary concern to defensive qualities. It's a good point on the saving throws, though. That natural spell resistance will help against many of the spells that would need saving throws.

Lmao, I was proposing the Banite(1)/Monk(x) idea as a general build, not specifically for the Deep Gnome race.

But looses out on the natural AC bonus and other bonuses of the Monk higher levels. The question becomes: which benefits you more, the higher casting ability or the natural bonuses?

Ok, but even there you've got, at best, +10 Dex (for a pure, level 30 Banite, +9 for a Monk(1)/Banite(x)). That's 5 more than the best item you can get, which amounts to +2 AC? Compare that to the +5 AC of a Banite(1)/Monk(x).

Taking your suggestion on the JUPP chapter:
Equipment:
Indomitable Bands (+5 generic AC)
----Crow's Nest (+3 generic AC) (rogue class, so let's cut that)
Sunfire Talisman (+3 generic AC)
Every God's Ring (+5 WIS bonus)
Chimandrae's Slippers (+5 DEX bonus)
Feats & other bonuses:
Dodge (+1 generic AC)
Expertise (+5 generic AC)
----Deep Gnome racial bonus (+4 generic AC) (let's try Drow, so we can drop this)
Monk bonus (+5 generic AC) (for 29 levels in Monk)
Bard Song (+1 AC) (assume only 1)
Spells:
Shield (+7 armor, can't be used by Illusionist class, self-cast only) (potions/items)
----Divine Shell (+6 deflection, self-cast only) (replace with Ghost Armor +5 deflection)
Haste (+4 generic AC)
----Tenser's Transformation (+4 generic AC, +2d4 DEX, self-cast only) (mage class, so cut this)

We get:
10 (base)
+28 total generic
+6 Dex Bonus (start at 20, -2 from Holy Trans., +5 from slippers)
+14 Wis bonus (start at 18, +4 from Holy Trans., +4 from Banite quest, +5 from ring, +stat points)
+7 Armor from Shield potion
+5 Deflection from Ghost Armor
===
70

Add in one level of rogue late and you can use the Crow's Nest (+3 AC, over 72). Start as human, put one level in both Banite and Rogue from the start with no xp penalty, and you can still get 72 (-1 from lower starting Dex, but +3 from the cap).

So, we get to 72 AC, the best saving throws, good HP, Improved Evasion (huge benefit for a lot of reflex saves), Deflect Arrows free, Still Mind (+2 saves vs enchantment), immunity to disease and poison, natural movement speed boost, ability to cure up to twice his current level in HP once a day, spell resistance of level+10, Empty Body (sounds like Blink?), and 20/+1 damage resistance, in exchange for the same AC, lower saves, lower HP and the ability to cast cleric spells (including Heal) yourself.

Honestly, I can understand the arguements on both sides. Personally, though, I prefer not to have my cleric being attacked while he's trying to cast, even if they aren't likely to be hit.

 

NOG, those were a lot of questions, so I'm sorry if I don't address them all.
Monks are weak in the beginning of the game, IIRC Silvery plays them often, and admits that they require a bit of coddling in the beginning. Their high saves, AC, SR, and powerful attacks will only appear in the mid game. In the beginning, they're basically a handicapped warrior class, unable to use armour and most martial weapon types.
It's true that most of the best buffing (&debuffing) spells are not caster-only for clerics. I'm very fond of the long-lasting ones, and the area spells. Bless, Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Recitation... those last 2 are great to cast on the frontlines, because your enemies will be similarly debuffed (you have higher AB, saves and damage, your enemies have less). There's also no saving throw, meaning only SR or immunity can stop it. Neither does it matter that you haven't maximized your cleric's DC; no saving throw, no DC check.
The enhancing spells Bull's and Champion's Strength can be cast on anyone, but it's good to have some extra spell slots, so why not on your decoy/tank/frontliner? Holy Power at level 4 is also great if you need to do more damage.
Iron Skins offers some realistic damage reduction against powerful enemies; the worst of enemies will punch through a monk's high AC anyway.
If you don't feel like engaging an enemy with your frontliners, clerics offer a variety of summons to act as meat shields.
The domain spells offer a variety of options, I'm particularly fond of the Dreadmaster of Bane's enchantment spells. They get +1DC from Tyrant's Dictum ability, and later +1 from the WIS quest bonus, add Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment... The +6DC on top of the base wisdom bonus will be plenty to defeat most enemies' will saving throws.
Good clerics get Holy Word, which is again a great disabling spell that allows for no saving throw (no DC check necessary). Although Command and Greater Command allow for a save, they are handy for certain enemies. And finally, the clerics get some handy healing and restoring spells: Remove Fear is a neat level 1 area spell in case your party is unexpectedly fear-stricken. Remove Paralysis (lvl2) is area effect, and will rescue the entire party from immobilization. Invisibility Purge speaks for itself. The higher level spells aren't so good in comparison, since they also get in the way of Heal, Raise Dead/Resurrection. Holy Aura is a notable exception, it will offer powerful protections for those dangerous encounters.
Iron Body is probably the worst spell, besides Antimagic Field: The last thing you want is to hamper your caster's spell casting for 10 rounds per level - I don't care what kind of enemy you're facing, it's a very bad idea.

I went into spell specifics a lot there, but let me return to the point I'm trying to make: You're thinking in the line of making one single character untouchable, to fit your hypothesis that a good defense will protect your casters adequately to allow them to make their attacks. What I, and others, are trying to make clear, is that this is a bad approach: No single character can be strong against any situation. When you must use summons on a dangerous frontline, your monk will be dead weight, chucking an axe from the back, or trying to pitch in until a boss almost kills him. Melee should be best taken on with a group, so if one gets badly damaged, others can take over (or Heal). Defense abilities are unreliable, so should be given a lesser priority. My party has such powerful attacks, whether they're offensive spells, or buffed range & melee, that enemies are dead very fast. My cleric frontliners take much less damage than your single monk decoy, due to the prolonged duration you'll be facing foes. "The best defense is a good offense"

If you take a monk, give it decent STR so it can at least melee well. And try to make most of the rest of your party serious casters (clerics, druids and mages beat rangers and paladins in this regard. bards are kinda in between, but they're a whole different story).
Personally I think warrior classes just don't cut it. I had a powergamed barbarian (well over 600 hitpoints at level 30) dashing around the battlefield like a behemoth tank, but it made way for a bard (i use the bard for casting and singing only, never for melee, unlike my mages). Once you get the hang of the IWD2 spells, you'll never want another simple warrior, and just want more spells. more, More, MOOOORE!!!

NOG, since you're going into the merits of armour class, I'll add my :
AC doesn't protect against critical hits. There's always a 5% or more chance per attack that your enemy rolls a critical, and does double/triple damage. If you're surrounded by powerful enemies and get unlucky, you can get knocked dead anyway. AC is unreliable IMHO, so you shouldn't rely on it so much.

 

AC 72 is really nice but what about critical hits? I'm kidding of course.

More seriously I don't want to criticize all this number crushing but I'd like to point out that getting a maxed out level 30 character takes a lot of time and is not possible in normal mode. It also means many hours spent with a character aiming at a certain build before actually getting to play that character... hopefully before the game is over...

 

I realize that, but I never have any problem early on anyway. That's what the rest of the party is for, after all.

Isn't Stoneskin better? It can be cast on someone else, too. I always buff everyone with Stoneskin before a big battle.

I do love that. I'm playing through with one now. Of course, that just means you want one in your party somewhere, not necessarily as your tank.

Again, I agree entirely. Well, except for Holy Word. I only tried it once, on my final battle regular mode with my good party. Somehow, Isair, Madae, and both Slayers of Xvim were immune to it. SR I guess. Anyway, that was a really bad first impression. I'd rather go evil and be immune to their casting Blasphemy and Unholy Blight.

Actually, I've been seriously thinking about trying out a melee mage (pureclass Wizard or Sorcerer, maybe 1 level of Fighter for feats), and focusing on all the touch attacks, defensive spells, weapon spells, etc. The way I see it, as long as you have other casters as well, it doesn't matter so much.

I'd have to see it myself to really believe how ineffective you say it'll be. Incidentally, I plan to. My next playthrough (after my evil party conquers the world.

Well, with Cha no longer a consideration for saves, that opens up a lot of stats to put into Str. I was already allowing for a higher-than-min Str simply because I wanted to actually be able to move, so I should be able to get up to 18.

I was recently impressed by how useful the save or die spells are in this game. Disintegrate took out two of the named cronies in the final fight without them even getting off a hit. Flaying got a third a little later. I've heard great things about Wail of the Banshee, too.

Ultimately, all protections are unreliable. Whether it be AC, saves, spell resistance, or even HP. That's why I wanted to maximize them all. Summoned swarms of undead and shadow monsters may be a better strategy, though.

That's actually one of the things that I like about these more simple builds (rather than some of the 3-4 multi-level multi-classes the Ultimate Party guides call for). A monk needs coddling early on, but gets powerful by mid-game in the first game. Add in the first two levels as cleric and rogue, and it just helps those early levels. Also remember that, just because a Monk can take advantage of a Wis bonus end game, doesn't mean they have to do so the whole time. A Banite(1)/Rogue(1)/Monk(1) can still use armor and shields if they want, and it may help a lot at those levels.

 

The weird thing is, the beginning can be the toughest part for a powergamer, as you have to deal with few spells and hitpoints. But without proper use of spells, the later game becomes challenging, to the point of impossible. With spells, a lot of it is a doddle.
Stoneskin doesn't protect against +5 weapons, and has shorter duration. But more skins means it's usually better, yes. Still, it's nice if your mages aren't burdened with this protection duty, because your frontliners can do it themselves.

Yeah, high level enemies are often immune to powerful spells. Wail of the Banshee only kills the most minor opponents in the final battle too. That´s if you can pull it off. Try Holy Word against a huge gang of mid-level opponents; you'll find that it's very effective in keeping them in place. I remember using it against an army of barbarians in the marshes, followed by Mass Dominate - great fun.
You've experienced first hand how powerful and resistant the bosses can be, so I hope that has convinced you that only the self-buff spells are truly reliable, since they affect you, and don't need to get through enemy saves/resistances/immunities...

Oh, it can get better than that: Mages can be made into fairly decent melee participants! My sorceress is frequently useful on the frontlines, she even helped out in the final battles. Get those protections up, find a suitable weapon, and don't neglect equipment. My strategy is to distribute equipment equally, so that character with weak armour, saves, resistances or whatever, get enhanced to the point that they are viable in multiple situations, including melee. I call it versatile powergaming, as opposed to ultimate powergaming. Basically it's teamwork.

I promise you won't be disappointed about the cleric. If you have any troubles during play, I'd be happy to offer advice or suggestions.

Hilarious. A whole new definition of 'staying power'.

They're great, especially in normal mode. Be aware that fortitude saves go up a bit in HoF, so don't specialize in them too much.

Eggzacktlee. If you try to create an ultimate defender, you'll just be disappointed about how its defenses remain full of holes. defense skill is secondary, leave it to spells and items. Don't compromize your spell selection for 'ultimate' defense. Your spell selection IS the ultimate defense.
Hey, I didn't even realize that until I typed it!

Another thing that should be mentioned, is that having mix-in classes increases your equippable items, and often your saving throws. There are plenty more great things that mix-ins can do, but just remember that:
1) every mix-in sets you back permanently in the progression of your main class due to the leveling system.
2) every subsequent mix-in weighs more heavily than the previous one, again due to the leveling system.
3) Main class progression is most vital in the early game, determining your access to spells and other abilities. So timing your mix-in is also important. You can read my IWD2_4dummies guide, to get an impression of the considerations.

 

NOG, as the others already have pointed out, a Monk isn't really that bad and can match or even exceed the AC available to a corresponding cleric. It's the lack of self-buffs, heal and other tricks you'd get by being an almost full time cleric that's putting us off.

Also, the point of a tank isn't to become INVULNERABLE to everything. That'd be patently stupid if you actually could. You only need to be able to soak hits better than your other team members. And in that light of things, there certainly is a mountain of difference between avoiding 95% of the incoming hits or just 5% of them. No, you can't be critically hit if your AC is high enough -- your crit threat roll also needs to "hit" for it to happen. Failed crit threat roll becomes a normal hit instead.

I can assure you, once my team buffs up my main tank up to the required AC levels (be it 60, 65 or 72, depending on the chapter I'm in), he could easily take on a horde of enemies all by himself. Yes, I've tried it on several occasions for hilarity. It just takes soooooo long time for him alone.

Edit: Almost forgot. Using a monk for high AC leads to stat point shortage. You need maxed DEX and WIS for AC, but you also need 13 INT to be able to select the Expertise feat. Since you most likely don't want to drop below 10 CON either, your STR and especially CHA are left hurting.

Sure, you can reach 72 AC without Expertise too (check the first tank in the JUPP melee party), but that's yet another +5 generic AC you'd have to scrounge from somewhere else. Make more than one such sacrifice and 72 AC goes bye bye.

 

Acting on the advice given in this thread that Clerics are # 1, I will try a new run thru, with the following party. I will be using Ease of Use, Light of Selune and Subraces as mods.

1 - Tank - Half-Orc Cleric - Tempus
2 - Tank/Healer - Human Paladin1/ClericX - Ilmater
3 - Thief/Healer - Human Rogue1/ClericX - Mask
4 - Death Hurler/Diplomat - Human Sorcerer
5 - Buffer/Death Hurler - Moon Elf Wizard
6 - Archer/Support - Human Ranger

This group will give me 3 potential healers, 2 Arcane casters, 5 SUMMONERS!, 4 potential decoys, 3 potential tanks. No evil characters, I'm looking for Heroes, with the Rogue/Cleric being the only Neutral character in the group. I have yet to try a Rogue/Cleric, should be interesting. I am liking Sanctuary mixed in with potions that do area damage to enemies. The ranger changes with the mods to d8 HP/Level, but gets what is basically the Archer Kit bonus to Hit and damage from BG2/ +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels.

 

Ehm.. I don't see any potential decoys in that party since you don't have either thief/mage (for items + tensers) or monk/cleric (for wis AC bonus) or somesuch that has potential for really high AC. Unless you get above 60 AC, you might as well not bother at all.

 

Sorry Sir Rechet, I didn't say what type of game i will attempt to conquer. I will be playing the standard version only, no HoF. A 60 AC will not be attainable. As for decoys, any of the clerics or the wizard will be able to cover that aspect via magic. The sorcerer will be all death, with no or very little defense. Even the ranger could possibly decoy, but that would be wasting his other talents.

 

Honestly, I see little reason for a wizard and a sorcerer in IWD2. Two sorcerers could cover all the good spells (as I see them at least), have more freedom, more castings per day, and not have to worry about spell scrolls (a huge issue in IWD2). Other than that, it looks good.

As for the critical, even a 5% regular hit chance is a bit decieving. After all, you will have Improved Invisibility, Blur, and possibly Blink on that decoy, right? That's 50%, 50%, and 20% concealment. I'm guessing those are counted seperately instead of stacking, so that's 5%*50%*50%*80%=1% or 1 in 100 attacks*.

*I've actually been testing this with a warrior-mage and while I don't have raw statistics, I've gotten him halfway through the Shaingarne (whatever) River without getting hit once!

 

In the Wandering Village, Light of Selune adds something very special for good rangers: A bow that adds strength damage to hits (1.5xSTR because bows are 2-handed). [Kill the bowyer afterwards for your money back] My sorceress took a level ranger early for it, and she's been a devastating ranged attacker ever since, she's on par with my frontliner's melee attacks.
There's also a +1/+5 enchanted returning arrow, and a special necklace that comes with the bow (requires non-lawful alignment). Enjoy!

Wizards open up intelligent dialogue options (only one important one) and have a large amount of skillpoints to allocate to important skills. CHA-bonus items are rare, and a wizard could make use of INT-bonus items instead. On top of that, the wizard's extra feats make it possible to take more spellcasting feats sooner, making their spells more powerful and varied than a sorcerer's. All in all their differences make them hard to compare.

The Improved Invisibility spell was overpowered in the unmodded game, but Tactics4IWD2 nerfed that spell for me. Blink+Blur+Mirror Image I used for especially difficult challenges, like the Guardian dragon. You shouldn't need Blink against regular foes.

 

I thought about it, but the wizard does get to pick spells at level up as well, plus it gives me one very balanced arcane caster. He can cover almost everything the game offers up, the Sorcerer can concentrate on being a Fireball Machine. I never thought the scrolls were lacking, I like the fact they just don't give you access to every scroll early on, it makes it a little more realistic. That is how I like my RPGs.

 

"Over and above"? I didn't think Divine Shell stacked with other sources of deflection AC, which means the monk can wear the "Great Lions of Arkamadis" bracers for +5 deflection, thus the cleric is really only negating 1 level by having +6.

-Max

P.S. I thoroughly enjoyed your JUPP guide.