Ultimate Tank

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I had a wizard in my first game. He usually got a new spell level before he got any spells to cast for it. In the end, my sorcerer had the same effective spell levels, more spells per day, and only fewer spells known (and there isn't enough variety in IWD2 for me to mourn the loss).

 

That's what I said - Divine Shell is +6 deflection but since you can get +5 elsewhere (such as Ghost Armor), only +1 of it is "above and beyond".

Thanks! Always nice to know someone is actually reading it.

 

But then your other sorcerer would have a very "exotic" spell list. The wizard levels earlier (useful in bigger parties) although if you want to keep the wizard lead on spellcasting you'd have to buy most of the scrolls.
Actually tho a wizard isn't a requirement, and an extra sorcerer would probably be better at nuking come end game. The wizard just combines power with convenience, which I prefer early on.

 

Well, you could easily split all the important spells between the two sorcerers (with them doubling on important ones like Magic Missle, Chromatic Orb, and your favorite nukes/dominations). That ends up with both of them having a slightly exotic spell list, but still both being quite useful in ordinary combat.

 

Not necessarily: Neither sorcerer would need to pick spells that aren't commonly used; they could just cast them from scrolls. Stuff like See Invisibility, Knock, Protection from Arrows and Beltyn's Burning Blood. They may not be your regular spells, but they are useful on occasion.

 

Oh, I see. The cleric can negate 5 MONK class levels, not 5 points of AC.

Guess I'll go put some more skill ranks in reading comprehension (English).

-Max

 

Oh, by the way. Basing on the stuff you wrote in the other thread, I'm assuming you're planning for your first journey through the game?

Just thinking that if you are, I'd actually strongly recommend NOT using most of the advice I've given in the JUPP guide. You only have one shot at experiencing the game as fresh, do yourself a favor and don't spoil it with metadata you're "not supposed to" know.

 

Coin, personally, I loved Bently's Burning Blood! Any spell that requires a fortitude save to avoid something like Berzerk is an automatic mage-killer (sort of) in my book. It was almost as good as Finger of Death in my first playthrough, and a much earlier spell to grab.

Spmdw45, what Sir Rechet said is true. The normal game is plenty easy enough that you can fill your party however you want and have a blast. The JUPP is more for powergamers and taking on HoF mode, things best tackled after you've broken in the game engine and enjoyed the plot (wait, what plot?) a little.

 

Not exactly. I've played the game all the way through HoF, but that was a few years ago and now that I have a fresh hankering for the game I have lost my old copy, and I'm currently waiting for my eBay'ed version to arrive.

-Max

P.S. I ordered the game on eBay before discovering these forums, unfortunately, so I was too late to buy through the SP store.
P.P.S. I think you could enjoy the normal game without spoilers, but in HoF the rules are so different that I think you have to plan for it from the beginning or else it will be jarring and not much fun. In particular, the triple-damage and triple-HP make many DR-giving spells (Ironskin, Aegis, Protection From X) and blasting spells (DBFB) relatively poor, whereas proportional spells (Blink, Invisibility, etc.) and save-or-die spells remain useful. I actually think normal mode is more fun but I would hate to dead-end so I have to plan for both.

 

Oh, HOF is plenty doable with a normal party as well, just as long as SOMEONE in your party can summon stuff or you use the standard powergaming tactics to your advantage.

The main point of JUPP is to have a tank that is actually HOF worthy. "Normal" parties have to rely on "just don't be there" tactic as a substitute for an actual tank.

 

Doable, yes. But if I'm building my party around sorcerers with DBFB and Skulltrap galore, and chuckling over the fact that I sometimes do 200 HP to everyone onscreen with a single spell... and then I get to HoF and find that all the monsters have 300-700 HP and that I actually kill more monsters with Prismatic Spray (instaskill 42% of the time) + a melee weapon, I would find that jarring and unpleasant. It throws off the otherwise-linear relationship between HP and saving throws.

Maybe I'm biased by my AD&D2 experience though. I just can't help thinking that 200 HP of damage is supposed to be a LOT. I guess I'd also be okay if HoF tripled saving throw bonuses (instead of a flat +10) as well as HP, even though that would make it even more ridiculous.

-Max

 

While I wait for the kitchen to be free so I can cook supper...

I've started playing IWD2 again. I've never finished the game on even normal difficulty. Its not that its gets too hard, its that I get bored. This time though, I aim to finish normal and even start HOF. Finish HOF... well we'll see how I do in normal.

I may post the details of my party later, when I have time, but for now, I've been trying to think about how to create the Ultimate Decoy (not tank), without any experience penalties.

The problem, as I see it, is that a number of important things for a decoy all either conflict with each other, or require class and race combinations that result in unavoidable experience penalties.

Like, the classic DG Monk/Dreadmaster/Illusionist will suffer a penalty, unless you level up the character as an illusionist and not as a cleric. But then you need to invest 18 points into INT, or consider upping it with level up points. The advantage of this is that the 13 INT points needed for expertise isnt wasted, the disadvantage is that the monk AC bonus is now no longer dependent upon your primary casting statistic.

Thats what makes the monk and cleric combination so desirable - the AC bonus depends upon wisdom, which also happens to be the clerics primary statistic. And if you choose Dreadmaster, you get +2 to wisdom in each difficulty. So, although only giving one level to dreadmaster and X levels to illusionist would avoid the penalty, you lose access to divine shell, and need to invest further points into INT, at the cost of your AC basically.

The other option - a female drow - lacks the +4 gnome AC, but I would say is otherwise doable. Such a character is my current decoy to be. Well, right now shes just a cleric, she doesnt know it yet, but she'll soon be on the front lines absorbing attention. That being said, I'm not sure how to make up the +4 AC. I dont think Drow even get +2 to wisdom at creation (I forget) so I think she starts with only 18 Wis.

When I say no experience penalty, I mean I would prefer no freakish characters such as Ranger 4/Paladin 4/Monk 5/Druid 4 etc etc (although its impossible for a druid to be a paladin, anyway, illustration purposes only!).

Perhaps a male drow Monk 1/Rogue 1/Dreadmaster 1/Wizard X? Still the problem of the primary casting statistic though.

What do you guys think? Any ideas?

 

JUPP has some good ideas to start off with. One possibility that might be fun is a Level 22 Druid, shape-shifted to Air Elemental form (supposedly that has natural AC in the 40s although I haven't ever gotten high enough to test) and buffed with Ghost Armor/Spirit Armor/Haste/Barkskin (from another druid) and with a monk level mixin (and a level of Banite). I believe that should be able to get up in the mid-70s, and it's nonconventional.

I find that illusionists are better at defensive self-buffing than clerics (Mirror Image, Blink, Improved Invis, Blur, etc.), which is great because that's the Svirfneblin's favored class anyway, whereas clerics are better at offensive self-buffing. On the other hand, a 40 WIS on an illusionist just sits there doing pretty much nothing, and I like the JUPP idea of making your 40 WIS decoy also be a level 20+ Dreadmaster for fun with spells.

Anyway, high-AC elements that I personally enjoy include War Song of the Sith (because I love regen), Barkskin, Brazen/Indomitable Bands, Monk WIS bonus, Expertise/Dodge, and Shield/Ghost Armor. I don't really like Divine Shell or Tenser's Transformation because of short duration and the lack of spells under Tenser's (which would also be a problem for the air elemental trick mentioned above), so I'd probably plan to get to the necessary AC--whatever that happens to be for the enemies you plan on fighting--with only long-lasting buffs. Note that except for Shield (which is available on an item actually), none of these impose any requirements on which class(es) I can take, as long as I invest all my level-up stat points into WIS. Oh, and I also like Draw Upon Holy Might's +9 DEX bonus (for an almost-pure Banite), mostly because it also comes with a +9 STR/CON bonus.

If you really seriously don't want to deal with experience penalties (although a monk/dreadmaster would still easily get to level 20 even with a 20% penalty, and might contribute to as much as a 2X experience multiplier for everyone else in the party by keeping the average level 9 levels lower), I'd probably go with a simple rogue 1/monk 1/dreadmaster 1/illusionist 27. You can get your crazy-high WIS, use INT-boosting items like Xvimian Fang of Despair, be almost unhittable with all your defensive buffs, and still have fun casting spells like Wail of the Banshee (really tough even with only 22 INT), summon Glabrezu and other super-toughies with Shades/Shadow Monsters, and not take any exp penalty at all.

-Max

 

Just as spmdw45 said.

Additionally, while a DEX-based illusionist easily avoids exp penalties, they can't quite achieve 72 AC without Tenser's Transformation without extreme measures. (We're talking once-a-day short buffs from a priest of Helm and stuff like that.) Since you're forced to use TT anyway, it'd be a shame to start with a low STR score - you're at melee range anyway, so why not whack some monster butt while you're there?

By having both types of characters (WIS and DEX based), you can use the WIS-based one as secondary protector all the way until you actually acquire a second set of AC boosting items, ie. chapters three to (early) five in HOF mode. Use the DEX-based one as your main protector until then as it has better AC potential. By then the WIS-based protector has acquired most if not all the levels in the class(es) it'll ever need, so the exp penalty from the monk level really won't matter much at all.

 

AFAIK, a Dex-based illusionist can reach AC 68 without a bard (using all three generic AC items for +11, which means you can only have one character doing this), or AC 70 with War Song of the Sith active, without having TT active at all. However, just because you're not going to max WIS with level-up points doesn't mean you have to ignore it. Instead of maxing out STR for a tank role (per the JUPP's "Balanced party" tank) you could take WIS 16 instead and a level of monk. With the +2 WIS/STR from the paladin quest this gives you +4 AC total, for AC 74 without TT. This frees up generic AC items if you want to have a second tank, but it does cost you in melee damage.

Another possibility would be to live with AC 70 and just make sure you never fight anyone with a BAB of +52, for instance by casting Recitation every time you meet Slayer Knights of Xvim. Don't forget that Blink/Blur/Invis, combined, will reduce the number of hits you take by a factor of five, which is effectively at least a +4 boost to AC as well (although of course it stacks multiplicitively with AC 72). So you don't actually NEED AC 72 if there's something you'd rather do with your build, although I can't actually think of anything that has a better cost/benefit ratio myself.

-Max

P.S. Final point: you can sometimes avoid experience penalties by aggressive level-squatting, if you're okay with that sort of thing. At the moment, my decoy is a Dreadmaster(1)/Monk(1)/Illusionist(8), and I plan to leave him there until he is ready to become a Dreadmaster(21) so he can get +7 w/ DUHM. Since I have a couple of divine casters already the lack of mid-level Dreadmaster spells doesn't actually hurt party effectiveness much. Meanwhile he just engages in melee.

 

Yeah, its tough to get away from the Deep Gnome Dreadmaster of Bane/Monk combo when looking for a max AC decoy. Its a pity though. I mean, I like all the things about 3E other than the favoured class idea. It just seems so arbitrary, that certain races multiclass well with a particular class. It doesnt make any sense to me. I can see they are trying to impart a little more "flavour" and difference to the races, while giving the adaptable humans a unique advantage, but it just makes no sense half the time.

If more races were like the Drow, ie had multiple favoured classes, then that would be fine. Like, maybe a Deep Gnome's favoured classes should be Illusionist, Cleric, and Rogue. I say Cleric and Rogue since they get a bonus to the primary stat of that class. Aasimar could have both paladins and clerics as their favoured classes, etc.

Another option I thought of today, was a Deep Gnome Monk 15/DreadMaster of Bane 15. Yes, I know multiclass combinations like that dont get the best out of either class, but it may be the route for the least trouble, high AC character possible. I mean, +3 Monk bonus in addition to other bonuses, although lacking the shield spell.

I find this sort of thing so interesting actually - the optimum build for various roles in the party, especially where HOF is concerned - its just a pity that, when it comes to the role of HOF decoy, we seem to always get the same answer. The Deep Gnome with high wis and dex, mix in level of monk, many levels of cleric, and an unavoidable exp penalty. Maybe I'll think about some of the other high AC examples in the latest JUPP guide.

Incidentally, why is it Jukka's guide? Who is Jukka?

 

But it's NOT the only option for AC 72. High-level monks work as well, and the shapeshifted druid works too. It's just so clearly superior that it hurts to take anything else. AC 72 isn't the only important part, of course--the goal is STAYING POWER, and that pretty much requires spellcasting (access to either Mirror Image or Heal or both). DG spell resistance also is nice. For me, the need for spellcasting is the primary reason why I will probably never actually play through the game with aforementioned high-level monk or other such combo.

Your DG Dreadmaster(15)/Monk(15) combo sounds workable, but you'll probably wind up with an AC of 78+, which means you're actually wasting points, since marginal benefits of pushing AC higher than 73 are very low. Use that extra freedom to pick a non-DG (if you want a dwarf/drow/whatever for RP reasons), or use lower-powered but longer-lasting buffs (Shield ==> Mage Armor), or whatever. Oh, and he doesn't have to lack the Shield spell--there's an necklace (I have it in Act II, and I think I bought it from either Beodawn or Zach) that has 30+ charges of Shield spell, which is more than enough for you to take on all the enemies that really require completely maxed-out AC.

Sir Rechet's real name is Mike Jukka, IIRC, hence "Jukka's Guide".

-Max

 

Mike Jukka? Where did that come from?

Jukka Mikkonen, at your humble service. Rechet (or Sir Rechet if it suits the situation) is just my Internet alias.

 

By the time your guide (and hence name) get around to the farthest corners of the internet, I imagine your name will be Sir Mikus Rechet Jukka III, Prince of Sweden.

I mean, this is the primary source of the guide, and already its been reversed!

I've been thinking about this for days now, cant seem to think of anything better than the DG Monk/Cleric.

A DG Monk/Banite/Rogue/Illusionist X is probably the next best thing for an untouchable decoy. On the train home today, I was thinking of some variety of halfling, with Monk 1/Bane 1/Barbarian X, for the damage reduction. How much damage do high level HOF monsters do in one hit? Break it to me gently.

Also... probably a noob question, but how do you keep attention focused on your decoys anyway? Do you just make sure that they enter battle first, to draw attention?

How much use is a melee berserker in HOF? I mean, I'm guessing that while high damage output is nice, drawing attention away from the decoys is not. I've realized that, at least in HOF mode, berserker and tank are most definitely not the same character. The things that make a decoy effective, like expertise, being a deep gnome, maximizing wisdom and dexterity, unfortunately all draw much needed ability points away from strength. There just isnt enough to go around.

I'm guessing ranged berserkers, as your guide seems to indicate, are the next best thing? Why do so many characters seem to take both the Cleave feats and Rapid Shot? Surely it should be one or the other?

 

The Ulimate Tank needs firepower and a heavy armour plating. Tracks for some good old all-terrain mobility and a rotating turret with a large calibre gun assisted by secondary machine guns are also pretty common fare for a Tank.

If we apply these principles for IWD2 we have to bear in mind that not only AC matters but firepower is of the essence.

What I want to say is no more decoys please.