Dalekeeper - I love it!

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After playing around for years with IWD2, I have finally given in to temptation and decided to mess with Dalekeeper. In all of the other IE games, you can pretty much get any set of stats you desire with some patience and alot of clicking of the mouse. But IWD2 doesn't allow for that. They use a real crap version of 3rd edition D&D to roll up character stats. Basically, you can't design the character you want, your stuck with trying to min/max stats.

So I decided to give this a try and I am LOVING it! It allows for different party compostion without going overboard. I have always wanted my Party to have a warrior or cleric as the speaker, but since you need to spend your measley 16 pts on Str, Dex and Con, it was always nearly impossible. I have started the below party, reaching 5th level last night while battling the Priests of Malar at the Shaergraene Ford. None of the Characters are overpowered, just more balanced for fun. I have always liked the Dreadmaster class, with speaker bonuses and + DC to spells. Now I think I cna actually play one like they are supposed ot be played, as the party leader. It makes sense rpg-wise as well. I gotta feeling I will be starting many parties with Dalekeeper over the next several weeks.

1 - Human Dreadmaster of Bane, LE, Str-15, Dex-13, Con-14, Int-16, Wis-18, Cha-15. Improved Turning and Combat Casting. Speaker, Priest and Melee capable.

2 - Human Fighter, LE, Str-18, Dex-14, Con-18, Int-11, Wis-12, Cha-12. WF-Axe, Power AT, Cleave. Tank.

3 - Gold Dwarf Bard, NE, Str-12, Dex-17, Con-20, Int-15, Wis-11, Cha-17. Lingering Song. Buffer. (Why Gold Dwarf? Always wanted a Dwarven Bard and shield Dwarves get a -2 Charisma.)

4 - Strongheart Halfling Rogue(1)/Wizard(X), NE Str-10, Dex-20, Con-15, Int-17, Wis-11, Cha-10. SF-Enchantment. Rogue and Solid Arcane Caster, a little of everything.

5 - Wild Elf Sorcerer, CE, Str-13, Dex-16, Con-15, Int-12, Wis-10, Cha-18. SF-Evocation. Super-Blaster MAster!

6 - Half-Orc Druid, NE, Str-20, Dex-17, Con-17, Int-10, Wis-16, Cha-7. Dodge. Straight Damage Dealer, both in melee and spellcasting.

 

For your bard it doesn't matter which dwarf race you take. 17 cha is as illegal for a level 1 shield dwarf as 17 dex for a level 1 gold dwarf.

 

The important thing is to have fun.

For the record there are stat boost at certain level ups which allow to increase stats beyond their starting scores (something that you can't achieve in other IE games -except with the tomes in BG1 and the Trials in BG2).

You've got more freedom in IWD2 because of that plus you don't have a cost increase like in NWN so really I can't agree with that comment.

Using Dalekeeper is like using any mod that "rebalances" things. If you like the modification just go for it. After all it's a single player game and you're not cheating as much as messing with the game mechanics. If the game becomes too easy you can always turn the difficulty slider up.

 

No, Gold Dwarves receive a -2 penalty to Dex, not Cha. 17 Dex would be illegal though, I will take it down to 16 to be precise.

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As I have been a pretty big fan of D&D for over 20 yrs, to use the method that IE used to create ability scores is a pretty crappy choice. I know they were trying to achieve game balance, but for a real fan, it's very dissappointing. But no worries, Dalekeeper fixes that.

The stat boost at every 4th level just goes along the lines of 3rd edition, which they were trying to follow, to a certain extent anyway. That should of been a given, not a bonus for the players. I prefer a chance to make good characters, but I don't have the need for Super characters. The system they used allows for neither without editing. That said, I usually only play the regular game, not HoF. In the regular game you will receive 4 bonus stat points throughout the game, which is nice and allows cusotmization, but again, that is standard for 3rd edition. But since with only 4 points, you can only total up to 80(82 with Drow & Tielfling, 84 with Aasimar) points of ability scores. In the other IE games, rolling stats to get 84 was almost a standard roll. So I think the choice of method was crappy.

 

Yeah, real men roll 3d6 for stats IN ORDER and then build their party around THAT.



-Max

 

I have always preferred the 4d6, disregard the lowest die method. It allows for decent stats with being super-uber. It all depended on the campaign challenges. 3d6 in order doesn't allow for much in character optimization, but made the game MUCH more challenging to play.

 

I believe in 20d6 and choosing the best four.

 

Well then you're in luck. 4d6 drop lowest will give you 73.47 stat points on average, while IWD2 gives you 76 stat points to play with. You will be able to recreate most 4d6-drop-lowest characters in IWD2 even before you get your level-up stat points, with 2 points to spare--I guess you can just dump the extra stat points into Charisma, which doesn't matter unless you regularly lose henchmen.

Not that I'm not glad you like Dalekeeper, I just find odd the suggestion that "assign 76 points" is somehow less authentic for a "real fan" than "4d6, drop lowest, assign to taste, instantly commit suicide and reroll if you don't like your stats until you do like them." Neither one was an approved method in AD&D2, which is my only reference point. (Not that that stops me from happily min-maxing my 76 points, lest anyone think I am somehow casting aspersions on IWD2.) YMMV I guess.

-Max

 

As for the 4d6 method, I was referring to PnP play. Which my 20 yrs of playing is most inclined to.

As for Computer gaming, I was referring to IE's use of a different method in their other games. I would of preferred being able to have the OPTION of higher stats. Not restricted to the crappy 76 points. Many fans like to customize their characters to what they are envisioning as heroes. The IWD2 76 point cap makes that impossible. Especially for characters like Paladins, Bards and Monks that use many stats. Hence, Bard characters end up as buffers only, when they should be jack-of -all-trades. For Paladins and Monks, they must have 1-4 as an INT to be able have decent physical stats to compete in melee and still be able to use their other abilities as well. IMO, that makes the game flawed at character creation. Something they could of fixed easily, but didn't. Giving the players the option of character custimization is an excellent option, much like in their previous games. Why they went in another direction for IWD2, I don't know.

 

Getting off on the Bard tangent: why is a Bard forced into being a buffer vs. jack-of-all-trades? If we eschew min-maxing and thus assign some points to relatively useless stats, we can still wind up with something like:

ST 12 (like ST 16 in AD&D2/Baldur's Gate, +1 To-hit/damage)
DX 12 (like DX 15, +1 AC)
CN 12 (like CON 14 IIRC, +1 HP)
WS 10
IN 12
CH 18

He will excell in his bard skills because of maxed-out charisma. He doesn't hit as hard as a ST 18 tank, and he's not as durable as a CN 18 barbarian, and he doesn't get as many skill points as an IN 18 wizard--but give him the right equipment and he's not all that far behind any of them either. He can buff or melee or launch missile weapons. That sounds like a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none to me. You could play this guy all the way through normal mode without a problem, with a comparable party.

For the most part, D&D is a lot more easygoing about stats than levels--the exact opposite of point-build games like GURPS. Face it, once you start getting up there in levels, missing out on an extra +3 to/hit damage hurts your efficiency but is not in any way crippling. In fact this guy will probably out-fight the pure Warrior tanks, given his access to Mirror Image/Invis/Blink/Wail, the various bardic song buffs + Lingering Song, and the weird way the physical round doesn't correspond to the spellcasting round.

Oh well, enough on that tangent. I am glad Dalekeeper allows you to use your party-generation method of choice.

-Max

 

The average stat of 73.47 is not an issue. It's the fact that you have the possiblity of rolling higher stats in the 4d6 method. That's one of the many grreat parts of the whole game experience, rolling up your stats. You are pretty much stuck in the 76 point method. Remeber the 1st time you rolled a character up in PnP that had above average stats. You didn't get a tad bit excited about playing the character? That is what I mean why I refer to "Real Fans" of D&D(or AD&D).

 

From the stats posted at the start of the thread, I suspect the real attraction is the *certainty* of rolling higher-than-average stats by just keeping on clicking until you get good ones. That makes the average of 73.47 a lot less important than the variance, and the variance on a point-buy scheme is 0--there's no reward for more patience. I guess if you enjoy fishing, re-rolling stats until you get a good one is about the same thrill. You've clarified that "real fan" meant "real fan of previous Infinity Engine" games and not "real fan of D&D" so I have no further beef here.

-Max

 

Reading your post I wonder if being a fan of IE games is such a bad thing or if you mean that one can't be a fan of IE games and D&D at the same time.

Some like a challenge when rolling 3D6 in order, others want to pick 3D6 out of 4 to get decent stats. In the end that doesn't matter provided the DM uses the same method for everyone around the table.

You know there isn't just ONE way of playing D&D or ADD or whatever version you like the most.

I bet Gygax and Arneson would have agreed that rules exist to help being creative (you need constraints in order to be able to create) and not to enforce artificial limitations on the game.

In other words, if you use all the rules all the time and never bend them, I'm sure playing a CRPG is a lot more fun (at least the computer takes care of most of the math for you). Rules are just semi random indications about the outcomes of actions and unfortunately with some DMs they get too much importance and become detrimental to the action and the pace of the story.

Some people like to go by the book which means that every die counts, others are ready to sacrifice rules when they are detrimental to the action and the epic quality of a scene.

Don't forget that "a DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make."

In my opinion, playing a CRPG like IWD2 is more fun than playing with a DM who hasn't assimilated that basic principle.

 

Actually, when creating characters in BG1 or 2, I usually use the 1st roll. But if the roll is really nice, AWESOME for me! It's the fact that you don't have the option that you can't get the awesome roll in IWD2 that is pants. I think point buy systems are crap for that reason alone. I used the stats for the new run, because previously you had no options of creating those type of well rounded, but not power-gamed up characters. I DO NOT like to re-roll over and over to get high stats, that defeats the purpose for me, because I AM a REAL FAN of PnP D&D, all editions up to 3.5. Also, A big fan of the IE games as well. It's just the fact that I started out playing PnP way back when, it leaves me with the expectations that the IE games should follow suit. They didn't, which I think sucks(for me), but I still enjoy them immensely, as I have been playing all of them since their initial release dates.

 

Given this sentence, I'm surprised you think I'm disagreeing with you. Or maybe you don't, but then why did you quote me?

-Max

 

@spmdw45: I don't like the smugness in the comment that I quoted above.

I can't even begin to assess how geeky it is to debate the ontological difference between being a "real fan of previous Infinity Engine games" and a "real fan of D&D" and that's a Pandora's box that should better have been left unopened.

I don't like what you imply, i.e. that to be a fan of IE games you couldn't be a real fan of D&D.

I don't think I'm the only person to have drawn this conclusion. Otherwise Blades wouldn't have deemed it necessary to state (in capital letters) that he is a real fan of pnp D&D.

Moreover, taking stat rolls into consideration as the sole decisive element to determine whether or not someone is a fan of an RPG is somewhat beside the point.

Hence my comment that there isn't just one way of playing D&D (or any other game for that matter).

 

Nope, there's no such implication.

The implication is that disparaging IWD2's stat method generation as "real fan of D&D" makes no sense, especially when the method you prefer is no more "authentic" than IWD2's, even if there weren't tons of ways that stat generation is done in D&D anyway. Disparaging IWD2's stat method generation as a "real fan of previous IE games" does make sense because (apparently) up to this point there had only been one method in IE games, and I can see how someone could get upset about changing it.

But if you want to think that random generation is the only choice for "true fans" of D&D, and call those who disagree smug, well, more power to you and I hope you enjoy your game.

-Max

 

The "authentic" way is to roll up stats is a 3d6 or 4d6 variation, as in the Old Gold & Silver box games of SSI prior to 3rd edition. Also as in Menzobarrazan, The Eye of the Beholder Series, The Ravenloft games, Dark Sun(which actually uses 5d4). The game has been in existence for many years and most of us that have been playing for a long time do not buy into the point method system. Hence my labels of "pants" and "crap" for that method. Of course, if your not a long time player, I can see how you don't make sense of it, you haven't experienced all the versions of D&D in it's evolution over the years. The core books have had many options over the years about stat rolling. Speaking from experience, most players do not use the point buy system. It just limits the options of what a player can create, limiting the game itself and the experience for the players.

 

Sorry, Blades, I am not going to get in an argument with you over which D&D stat generation method is best.

-Max

 

Who's arguing? I was clarifying my stance on the matter. I like a good discussion about D&D. Takes the edge off while I'm at work. We don't have to agree, I really do respect input and opinions from others on this topic, even if I don't agree. No biggie.