Ultimate Tank

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Should we split this into a new thread?

Modern tanks put as much importance into mobility and targeting as firepower and AC. And they all use ranged attacks - no melee tanks. So, what we want is a monk carrying a composite bow?

 

Arrows don't see much use with tanks except maybe in Rambo III.

Wouldn't some kind of nuker be effective? I wonder if a Cleric could pack enough offensive power to be both mobile, armoured and deadly. Or the ranged berserker you mentioned earlier?

 

Um. Apparently from the depths of my psychosis.

-Max

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Yes. Turn on the breakpoint/message for "character is attacked" and you will see that monsters pick their targets a second after they first spot enemies, and then mostly stick to that target for the rest of the fight. It can be useful to have a second tank/decoy a little bit behind your first to catch any monsters that "leak," perhaps because they can't find a path to the first decoy.

Decoy/tank are not mutually exclusive roles. Even a STR 6 decoy can be outputting 50-100 points of damage per turn after you get done with all your buffs/weapon upgrades.

50+ points of damage. They have +6 to STR, and then they get triple damage on top of that, compared to normal mode. That will get through any DR except Iron Body.


-Max

 

Agreed, but you've got to admit a STR 6 Tank doesn't sound that hot.

 

Arguably, without AC 72, it's not a tank, just a dude with a LAW rocket. "Eggshells armed with sledgehammers," as Honor Harrington would say.

-Max

 

Um... is there anything special I need for Weapon Finesse to work?

I have a high dexterity character, armed with only a dagger, nothing in his shield slot. And yet, in the attack bonus section, it shows that he is receiving a -2 to attack because of his abilities. He has 7 strength, hence the minus 2. Why isnt it using his dexterity modifier instead? I tried a regular old dagger and the Brilliant Short Sword +5, neither work.

Anything obvious I'm missing?

 

That's weird. Is Expertise on? Obviously that doesn't matter since you get the -2 from STR and not +5 or +4 minus something.

 

No, its not on. Perhaps its a bug from IWD2Tweaks? I have that component that gives weapon finesse to magical weapons and fists turned on.

This character has also been... remade. I had reached the river caves, before I decided to create a new party and level them up the same amount. I wrote down their experience values for accuracy. Anyway, point being I just made him, gave him weapon finesse, expertise and two weapon fighting. I dont have a weapon in my off hand, I plan to use that later. He's Monk 1/Dreadmaster 1/Wizard 7, so he definitely has the BAB 1 needed for weapon finesse. Maybe it is the tweaks thing, I mean perhaps the fists weapon finesse is conflicting with that of the dagger. I'll remove that component and try again.

I'm ready to post details of my new, improved party. Here goes

Decoy, buffer, and utility.
Lawful Neutral Deep Gnome Monk 1/Dreadmaster of Bane 1/Rogue 1/Illusionist X.
Stats: Str 7, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 1

I put the first two ability point increases into Int, the rest into dex. Since he can reach the magical AC of 72 with Tensers like that, I thought I may as well make him a better wizard. More int gets him more much needed skill points, more wizard spells, and slightly higher DC's.

AC: Base 10
Spells 13
Wis Bonus (after dreadmaster of bane quests) 4
Shield 7
Ghost armor 5
Feats and race 10
Dex bonus (with Tensers) 12
Equipment 11
Total: 72

Secondary Decoy, Buffer and debuffer
Lawful Neutral Female Drow Monk 1/Rogue 1/Dreadmaster of Bane X
I actually cant remember if I planned to add the rogue level or not. I think I did, so that she can wear the normal mode generic AC equipment (swing from the masts?). If not that, then maybe monk 5 instead.
Stats: Str 8, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 13, Wisdom 18, Cha 5
All points go into Wisdom, and she will also use the potions of holy transference and clear purpose, and one of the Every God rings.
AC: Feats 6
Spells 9
Wisdom Bonus 14
Dex bonus 7
Spirit Armor 6
Divine Shell 6
Equipment 7
Total: 65

Her AC is good enough for decoying in early HOF, in later parts only the first decoy can decoy.

Berserker and Bombardier
Neutral Evil Female Drow Dreadmaster of Bane 1/Druid X
Stats Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 18, Cha 5
All level up points go into Str. With the banite quest bonus, she reaches a wis of 22, not bad. In HOF, depending on whether she can survive melee, and she probably cant, she can wield the Massive Halberd of Hate.

Beserker, Healer, buffer and debuffer
Lawful Good female Drow Paladin of Helm 1/Cleric of Helm X
Stats Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 18, Cha 5
All ability score increases go into strength. I chose Helm primarily because of the shield of helm ability, in case I need it in HOF. Other candidates were Lathander and Ilmater. I usually prefer the Morninglord myself, for some reason. I think its partially because of the ethos of the God himself (who, apparently, has now reverted to being Amaunator) and also because of the free improved turning feat. I usually make a MorningLord with at least 14 charisma to take advantage of it. But... this time I decided that a small improvement in anti undead abilities wasnt worth sacrificing the rest of the character.

Diplomat and Bombardier
Lawful Good Male Aasimar Sorcerer X
Stats: Str 8, Dex 4, Con 14, Intelligence 18, Wis 16, Cha 20
He may take a paladin level later on, if he needs the saving throw bonuses. Not much to say about this guy - I need a bombardier, and I dont like bards much. Because of his high intelligence, hes also a good place to put some other skills. Such as alchemy and wilderness lore. And of course, knowledge arcana.

Berserker, buffer and bombardier
Lawful good human Paladin of Mystra 1/Monk 1/Sorcerer X
Pretty much a carbon copy of the same character in the JUPP.
Stats 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 3, Cha 18
All level up points go into Cha. The one thing I'm not quite sure of, is whether to go for 18 dex and 16 con, or 16 dex and 18 con.

What do you guys think? 5 of the 6 are ECL characters. My idea is that, when it comes to ECL characters, its all or nothing. Either everyone is ECL, thus bringing the average party level down enough for exp bonuses to increase, or one or two people are ECL, putting them permanently behind. This party doesnt have experience penalties either. In fact, none of the characters require more than a single level of their mix in classes. I'm thinking about giving the female drow paladin/cleric a level of monk, to give her evasion. With her high dex and cha saving throw bonus, she can be counted on to make that saving throw. I find that evasion helps me evade my own bombardment spells far more often than spell resistance does.

 

In theory, the cleric of Helm should be able to decoy/tank fairly well in later parts too. Just cast Iron Body and you're immune to weapons below +3. (Sorcerors could do this too if they spend an 8th level spell slot.) Let your main decoy take on anybody with heavy-duty magic weapons, but your cleric can decoy for animals and lesser grunts.

-Max

 

Alot of you guys have excellent ideas about the tank and decoy builds. What are your opinions on the best tank & decoy builds in the vanilla game? As I usually don't go thru Hof mode after.

 

In the vanilla game, I would say its a lot easier to build a tank that functions well as a decoy, since the BAB of your enemies arent so insane.

So, my preference would be (and it is preference!)
Female Drow Monk 1/Cleric X
Cleric can be dreadmaster of Bane if you like, for the +2 Wis quest. Alternatively, change it to a Human Monk 1/Paladin 1/Cleric X, this time for the Paladin quest bonuses.

Quite simply, max wisdom, dexterity, strength and consitution, and minimize intelligence and charisma. With your wisdom and dexterity bonus from a female drow, before any buffs are cast, you will have 19AC. Cast Ghost armor, spirit armor, barkskin, and eventually haste on her, and you will have 39AC. And you can add Cats Grace to that for another +2 boost. I would think that would be a high AC for normal mode, but to be honest I'm not sure.

 

I have used the Deep Gnome Monk in the past as the party decoy. Which works out really well, they are almost unhittable for most of the game. I am currently using a Drow Cleric of Lloth(Cleric Domains Mod installed) and I like her alot. Adding a level of Monk would be nice with her high Dex and Wis bonuses.

 

In the vanilla game, there are so many options that it probably doesn't matter. At most you'll encounter BAB +30-ish, and you can get to AC 50 any number of ways:

Spirit Armor +6
Ghost Armor +5
Barkskin +5
Haste +4

That's AC 30 so far, on ANYBODY. Now add several of the following to get another +20:

DEX 18 +4
Shield +4
Expertise +5
Dodge +1
Brazen Bands +5
Swing from the Masts +1
Fire Dance Talisman +1
Monk w/ WIS 18 +4
Shield spell +1 (relative to Spirit Armor)
Chains of Drakka +2 (relative to Spirit Armor)
Divine shelll +1 (relative to Spirit Armor)
Monk levels +1 to +4 (at level 20)
Deep Gnome +4

I'd still pick a Deep Gnome as my main tank in normal difficulty, all else being equal, just because illusionist really is pretty good for defense and isn't bad at all on offense. I might not bother to max out DEX or WIS (could potentially invest in STR instead), and might or might not even bother to take a monk mix-in level. I might be tempted, though, to try a DG Monk/Illusionist, with only a few levels in Illusionist for Mirror Image/etc., and most of my levels in Monk. 20/+1 DR and extra Spell Resistance sounds tasty, in normal mode. Probably I'd shoot for something like this:

Svirfneblin Monk(20)/Illusionist(4) (+4 AC from Monk)
STR 16 +3 from level-ups = 19
DEX 20 (+5 AC) +1 from level-up = 21
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 10 +1 from level-up
CHA 1

Equipment of note: Brazen Bands, Ring of wizardry (+1 INT), Chimandrae's Slippers (DEX 26, +8 AC), Every God's Ring (16 WIS, +3 AC)
Feats: Expertise, Dodge
Typical buffs: Mage Armor, Ghost Armor, Haste, Barkskin, Bull's Strength (STR 21-24)

AC: 61, or 57 without Haste.
BAB: +15/+12/+9/+6/+3, -5 for Expertise, +5 to +7 for STR. Unarmed damage is 1d20 + STR.

In fact, you could easily drop Ghost Armor, Barkskin, and Haste entirely, and give him a Cloak of Protection +3 or something, and have AC 50 with nothing but Mage Armor, assuming I've done my math correctly. If he sees any Slayer Knights of Xvim, he may want to cast Shield on himself to get to AC 53. With awesome AC, 20/+1 DR, and 4 Mirror Images per day, this guy is pretty well equipped to solo the game. If he had any diplomatic skills that is , and if quest experience alone can get you up to level 24 (I can't remember) since unless you level-squat, which I am totally cool with but other people are not, you'll be unable to get that high with monster EXP.

So anyway, making a tank/decoy is so easy in normal mode that you can probably make most of your party into tanks/decoys just by shuffling equipment around and casting the right spells.

-Max

P.S. Back in the days of THAC0 and the Gold Box Series, you couldn't have AC better than AC -10 (equivalent to AC 30 in IWD2), so you just got used to taking a lot of hits from high-level monsters and fighting a battle of attrition. I'm pretty sure I prefer the IWD2 way instead.

 

With all of these incredible AC builds, do they last in combat? I don't mean the spell durations, but does the AI notice these builds and take steps to counter them, as in Dispel magic to start off a battle? Or do any of the mods for IWD2 make for a tougher AI that will use counter measures?

 

Get Tactics4IWD2. Awesome mod, it makes the game really hard so be sure you bring at least one Cleric to the party.

 

Ok. But does the mod make the encounters tougher by adding enemies or by better scripting? or both? I am currently enjoying the Cleric Domains mod, which I had to install in a certain order with EoU and LoS in order to get it to work. Can I install Tactics4IWD2 at any time or will it screw with the other mods I have installed?

 

Side note: in general, Dispel Magic shouldn't be a particular problem unless it's cast by a friendly. It's a Will save of low DC, and most high-AC characters will have high WIS for the monk bonus as well as caster levels and thus high Will saves. If you happen to crit-fail you may need to retreat and regroup of course, or have a secondary decoy or summons to take the heat while you re-buff decoy #1, but that's not any more damaging than getting Charmed or Held. Not saying enemy casters aren't tough, just that there are other spells I fear just as much if not more.

-Max

 

I haven't checked close enough, but it SEEMS that most of the attack bonuses are just 20 below their HOF values (normal difficulty), so 52 AC sounds just fine in Normal mode. That's achievable on most characters - even simultaneously - if you want to push it, but mobs just drop too fast for it to really matter.

The standard AI is pretty stubborn in keeping their target, even if they can't hit much of anything. Some spesific enemies actually switch their aggro to your casters as soon as they see them, but since most decoys/tanks are mainly casters to begin with, it doesn't usually matter that much either.

Dispel is much more of a nuisance than a real threat since caster-based protectors have amazing Will saves, but yes, that would be a major wrench into the clockwork if it happened at the wrong moment.

 

Good question, I'm not sure about compatibility with the Cleric mod.

It doesn't add enemies but make them much tougher and able to use summons and spells like Improved Invisibility. Check this thread.

 

Thanks Caradhras! Just went thru that thread, there's excellent info in there... I guess I will be restarting again. It's the curse of the Infinity Engine games, there's always another mod to add....