Ultimate Tank

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Quick question - when in Kuldahar, when you go to the Dragon's Eye, is it normal for all of the villagers except Iselore to disappear afterwards? I cant find Conlan, Nathaniel, Sheemish, Jermsy or Gerbash. Iselore is still there though.

Perhaps they were hidden by a script when the ambush happened, but not put back? Any ideas?

Figured out what the problem with my weapon finesse is. You need to have Weapon Specialization: Small Blade. Proficiency isnt enough for some reason.

My game is going well. Of all the parties I've played with (I've got to Dragon's Eye with a few of them), this is probably the most powerful. With their buff spells, they become killing machines, and every single one of them is a very capable spell caster. Yeah, its powergaming to the T, apart from experience penalties. But its fun.

I changed the stats of my primary decoy (deep gnome Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Monk 1/Dreadmaster of Bane 1/Illusionist X) to Str 6, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 1. He has put two ability points into intelligence, the rest will go into Dex. The reason for the 1 extra wis is that both of the wis boosting items - every gods ring and ring of the wise - boost his WIS by an odd amount. This lets him get to the next breakpoint. With the ring of the wise, he should be able to reach Wis 20 after both Banite quests, for WIS AC +5.

The ranger level... both of my decoys will be taking ranger levels. The reasoning is that, they already have more than 20 levels planned for their main casting classes, and the free two weapon fighting and ambi dexterity feats are welcome. They have to wield melee weapons for expertise to work, and they both have much higher dex than str, so may as well get weapon finesse and 1 level of ranger. I considered buying the feats manually, but its well worth one level into ranger for the free feats. I havent done that yet, will wait until they can cast probably at least level 8 spells, or maybe 9. Maybe HOF?

I level squatted all the way from the beginning of Kuldahar to the end of Dragon's Eye (before the time loop). Average party level is 14, this means most of my characters are effective level 16 and 17. I'm going to squat from now until, well as long as I can, hopefully I can reach actual level 16 or 17 by then.

 

That's an option in Mindchild's customdll: Any weapon can be finessed, as long as you have weapon focus (2 slots) in it. It can be unselected, so the standard small blades weapon finesse reactivates, which I did.

 

That would explain it. Oh well. Not all of those things work for me. That obviously does, but the monk still getting the AC bonus while wearing robes doesnt. Oh well...

An update.... I finished the game, and made it to HOF mode. I finished the game on average character level 16. Well, deep gnome was 15, all 3 drow were 16, human was 18, aasimar 17. Highest spell level was 8. By that time, it wasnt really a challenge. I mean, just buff up, and everything died really fast. I didnt have to reload to beat the final bosses. I also, through repeated reloads of the battle with Tyrannar Brutai Mai, managed to find a Tymora's Loop.

I'm now finished with the first area of Shaengarne Ford, just before the area with orc encampment. This party, so far, is decimatingly powerful. I guess it pays off to powergame! I mean really, it is nice seeing HOF enemies just get hacked to pieces. I'm wondering what Executioners Eyes will do now! I also have a Lucky Knucky now. So one Tymora's Loop and one Lucky Knucky.

Question - what do you guys do with berserkers when you cant really engage in melee anymore? Give everyone except decoys ranged weapons? This is kinda aimed at Sir Rechet, since some of his berserker/buffers dont include the rapid shot feat. Any reason? Its a pity that the characters best suited to melee combat cant really survive long enough to do much damage. Well, I mean at the moment my best melee warrior ends up with 44 AC or so, I think, so she has some survivability, but later on in HOF that will be nothing at all. Will she have to retire her Cera Sumat for a Throwing Axe or something?

I'm keen to see how this party can do late game. Right now, I'm REALLY liking it. I'm kinda glad I didnt bring a bard along too - I dont see the micromanagement required for the effective use of bard songs to be worth it.

EDIT: Let me add, this is also a tribute to the JUPP guide. It really works. Yeah, powergaming isnt for everyone, but it suits me perfectly, and I've enjoyed every minute of it. I didnt think I would want to jump right back into it in HOF, but I did, and I still enjoy it. And I'm glad that my party is doing as well as it is against these monstrous foes. Lets hope it stays that way! Highest AC for my decoy so far, in Act 1, was 66 (with tensors). So, thank you Sir Rechet.

 

You can still do melee combat in HoF mode with a pure barbarian. Natural damage reduction combined with armor which grants damage reduction can absorb quite some damage. A high level barbarian wearing the abishai hide armor can solo the prologue goblins in melee easily.
A level 29 barbarian wearing the bracers of the master has even 22 damage reduction versus most enemies and should be able to melee nearly every monster 1:1, just don't fight several monsters at once.

Ranged combat for characters is still more comfortable since it doesn't matter if summons take damage, resummoning is easier than healing. Throwing axes, daggers or slings do nearly the same damage as melee weapons. The long range halberd you can buy in Targos is also great.

The reason why rapid shot isn't mentioned in HoF party guides is that you'll always have mass haste cast and BAB gets so high that you'll have 5 attacks per round even without it, so only a bonus to hit remains from this feat (It is still more useful than saving throw boosters).

 

+4 to dex from spell gives another +2 AC...

You could get AC well below -10 in some (possibly all) of the games. Maybe the game engine treated AC -24 the same as AC -10, but I don't think so.

 

I remember hearing (or seeing?) that that was true about Baldurs Gate 2. Perhaps the expansion removed the -10 AC limit?

@kmonster

True, yeah to be honest I never thought about the natural 5 attacks per round thing. That being said, my wizards etc are nowhere near that. I'm not sure if my illusionist decoy even has a natural unboosted BAB of +6, in otherwords he might only have one attack per round in his main hand. Hes Rogue 1/Monk 1/Bane 1/Ranger 1/Illusionist 12. I think he'll do some serious level squatting for a while.

Whats the experience gain in later chapters like? One guide I read said that, due to the challenge rating, the only way to reach high levels is to squat for considerable periods of time.

 

Which version of JUPP you're referring to? I did a remake of it just a couple of months ago.

I just double-checked and as far as I can see, Rapid Shot dangles as a feat pick for most of the characters in both parties, tanks and decoys excluded of course. Around level six or so. Power Attack and Cleave are kinda redundant if you aim for mostly ranged combat, but melee does happen often enough to warrant it. ESPECIALLY since you want to end being in melee as soon as possible.

If you take a peek into the maths section in JUPP you'll note that ranged combat actually does MORE damage than melee early on, mostly due to the Rapid Shot feat. This advantage vanishes later on, but having enemies at the other end of the range of any thrown weapon (or more) more than compensates for it -- you're both much better protected from harm AND can reach enemies in the order you want them dead instead of having to wade through the masses in melee combat.

Edit: Experience level curve follows normal mode pretty closely, only that you're about 10 levels higher at all checkpoints. Obviously you start with a bigger lead, but you'll only score pitiful amounts of exp through most of chapter 0 & 1 so you'll fall back in line soon enough.

 

I had an AC of -14 with my Knight in Dark Queen of Krynn. It was possible, but in doing so, it unbalanced that character to the rest of the party, which was a very bad idea in those games. You needed everyone to have a fighting chance or they would get squashed. Too many enemies in a lot of those battles.

 

Perhaps my memory is faulty. Sorry about that.

-Max

---------- Added 0 hours, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later... ----------

His BAB is therefore +7/+2.

-Max

 

@Sir Rechet

I've got both versions! Another... stupid question... do you avoid melee absolutely later on in HOF? Right now, I can engage in melee with buffed non-decoy characters (ie, berserkers), but when they get hit, their health drops fast. I'm guessing pretty soon it will be too dangerous to do so without careful management of things like Symbol of Hopelessness? Symbol of Hopelessnes and Mordenkainens Sword are two of the most powerful spells in the game, hands down.

I'm considering a replacement for my druid character. Currently shes a Neutral Evil Female Drow Dreadmaster of Bane 1/Druid X. I'm considering a replacement mostly because I cant give her evasion without EXP penalties, and I consider evasion far better than spell resistance for avoiding damage. My Paladin 1/Monk 1/Sorcerer X never takes fireball damage from me, whereas my druid almost always does. Yeah, admittedly he has high dex and charisma, making his reflex saving throw excellent, but even my other non paladin characters save probably 75 - 90% of the time. My success rate with spell resistance is probably 45%.

The replacement I'm considering is a Ranger 1/Figher 1/Monk 1/Dreadmaster of Bane 1/Druid X. The reason for all the classes is, well, I dont think I need a level 30 druid. I'd rather get the weapon feats, extra feat, and slightly higher BAB bonus, and a significant AC bonus should he/she ever enter melee combat. Yeah, hopefully that wont be often in HOF mode, but some protection is better than nothing. Frankly, the evasion that the monk level gives is more valuable than the AC anyway. And of course 1 cleric of Bane level for the quest bonus. I would think about taking 4 levels of fighter, but then I cant take the cleric and monk levels without either a penalty, or taking at least monk 3/cleric 3/fighter 4. Anyone think thats worth it? Human of course.

EDIT: A more detailed explanation of why being human (for her) is better than Drow.

Her starting stats, as a drow:
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 18, Cha 5. Int and Cha are 5 because I cant minimize them further.
Starting stats as a human:
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 18, Cha 3. In fact, I even get a bonus feat at first level, a bonus skill point every level (not that she really needs them, but still) and no light blindness. And significantly faster level progression. And the ability to take a level of monk without an experience penalty. In exchange, I have to give up spell resistance. I think its worth it.

The only concern I have is that this character will push my average party level up, thus decreasing experience gain. I dont plan to start her as level 1, rather, to level her up to the same amount of experience as she was before, minus 5000 (Drow starting experience). I might... as a sort of handicap, and compromise, take one further level of experience off (ie one less level). Net effect is lower average party level!

 

It's not like you're instakilled as soon as you enter melee, even in HOF, and in some places it's pretty much unavoidable. I find that two or three brutish characters beating on a singular HOF toughie usually manage to take it down before it manages to kill one of yours, nasty crit strings notwithstanding.

If you find that your battle plan fails you and one of your non-protector character ends up gaining aggro from several monsters at once, you either bail out with Invisibility/Sanctuary or tough it out by chaining one or more Heal spells from several characters so that they land within a couple of seconds of each other followed by a Greater Shield of Lathander. That usually culls the damage intake enough to let you simply whack the offending monster(s) into a pulp. If it doesn't.. well, you went waaaaaay beyond your head in that case and you'll be Resurrecting or Power Word: Reloading soon thereafter.

Edit: Symbol of Hopelessness sure is nice, but there's surprisingly many types of enemies that are immune to it. I ditched her in favor of Tremor for the really, REALLY critical spots during my last playthrough and haven't looked back since.

Spell Resistance failing you is mostly caused by not having enough of it. You really need to be several levels higher than the enemies you're fighting if you want to see real results from the *natural* SR of drows and deep gnomes. Using Holy Aura fixes the problem but since it's a high level spell, lasts only a scant few rounds AND competes for spell slots with some of the arguably best spells clerics get, you can't really expect to maintain good uptime on it unless you rest after every corner.

Incidentally, that's why I consider the Holy Avenger as an absolute must for at least one of your tanks - it bumps your SR into the comfort zone so that you can actually start COUNTING on it. Likewise, gaining an early level advantage for your tank by starting with a small party and adding rest of the gang somewhere later accomplishes pretty much the same until you actually can acquire the Holy Avenger.

 

Sounds like a great time for a tactical retreat--you're probably Hasted and the monsters may even be Slowed, so you can either run away or cast Invisibility Sphere.

This doesn't work so well when you get ambushed upon entering a map. It's not that hard though to get your Hide skills high enough that everyone but the decoy is hidden upon entering the map, so all the bad guys focus on your decoy/tank. That usually works well unless more enemies pop up in the middle of the battle (just happened to me yesterday in the ice caves, because I forgot that there's a dragon outside that you need to kill, so when I went inside he popped up in the middle of all my missileers during the first round of battle).

Anyway, when you leave enemies' Line of Sight they lose aggro, so you can send the decoy back in first and you're golden.

-Max

 

Well, tactical retreat is or at least should be in the "business as usual" part of your battle plan, ensuring that tanks and decoys can actually do their job. The situation I'm talking about is when the excrements hit the fan and all hell breaks loose.

 

My point about SR is more that it fails when I bombard my own party, not that it doesnt do anything against enemy spellcasters. In fact, its far more useful against enemy spellcasters than it is at protecting my own party from my own fireball spells.

That being said, I havent encountered many situations (at least in normal difficulty) that have been difficult because of spellcasters. There are too few of them to be a real threat, most of the game seems to spent fighting melee enemies. I guess it could help in the final battle, to be honest it was over a little quickly for me to notice.

Yes, delaying the introduction of bombardier type characters or making sure that at least one of them is carrying the Holy Avenger are two ways to protect your own party. The Holy Avenger is probably the only sure fire way to ensure that.

In my case, boosting SR via the holy avenger on my decoys is impossible since both of them are Dreadmasters, not Paladins, because they need Wisdom more than they need strength. One of my berserkers is a Drow Paladin, she is currently wielding my Holy Avenger.

Re battleplans and melee engagements. For now, my berserkers are using throwing weapons, but I'll probably switch back to melee weapons for one or two of them, for now. I'm amazed at how effective the combination of luck boosting items and, well, pretty much anything is. Its probably not far off to say that Tymora's Loop is the single most powerful item in the game, and Young Ned's Lucky Knucky is the second most powerful. I'm also amazed at how much damage one can do with ranged weapons that receive a bonus to damage based on strength. It gets incredible. Who needs bows when you have returning throwing hammers and axes?

 

Enemy spellcasters are especially frustrating when you're working a lot with buffs. Almost all casters can and do cast Dispel Magic on you. It rarely works, but sometimes succeeds in dispelling valuable buff spells. Group spells like Bless, Magic Circle vs.Evil and Emotion: Hope are hard to replace, if only one in my party has been dispelled. But pehaps my experience is different, because I'm playing with the Tactics4IWD2 mod.

Although slings don't register the added strength damage in the info screen, they do add a hefty strength bonus. Someone mentioned it a while back, and I've been having fun with the +1 returning flame bullet ever since. Use a good sling, and you get longer range and a better attack and damage bonus than from throwing axes.
As for the most powerful luck bonus, it's from the level 5 bard song Tymora's Melody. It prevents critical misses for up to 6 people. And +1 luck for 6 people has to be better than +3 luck for 1 person... or isn't it? Not to mention: you get guaranteed access to this, and at a much earlier point in the game!

 

Spellcasters: if you do a tactical retreat from Limha when you first come out of her hut, to make the trolls focus on your decoy, you will find that Limha has summoned a huge horde of monsters that make her much tougher. (That's why she has all those summoning scrolls, apparently.) You must kill her immediately. Hold Person, Dire Charm, etc. are all annoying on spellcasters too. I agree that spellcasters are not as fearsome as they could be but they're still much worse than melee monsters.

Boost the SR on your dreadmasters with spells like Holy Aura and items like the potions from off Sherincal.

Agreed that bows are pretty much the worst melee weapons for dealing damage. Returning frost darts are much better, not to mention enchanted slings, returning hammers, and Big Death.

-Max

 

Out of curiosity - you haven't taken Spell Penetration feats for your spellcasters, I hope? If you have, that's your problem. High caster levels + Spell Penetration = you'll roast your own party more often while affecting enemies more only when they happen to have SR to begin with.

Since you're in HOF mode, I'd suggest you keep them throwing weapons as their main weaponry and switch to melee only when absolutely necessary, not the other way around. Getting your berserkers killed is going to hurt more than doing a few percent less damage per round.

Well, just to emphasize a point, JUPP has devoted a whole subchapter to this effect alone. Luck really IS that good. Also, as you noticed, thrown weapons can really make small miracles if you let them. Even the lousiest of them, an unenchanted sling with unenchanted bullets ties in damage with a two-handed sword for any low-level character with 18 STR if you use it together with Rapid Shot.

 

Not to mention that you can instantly focus missile fire from all party members on any enemy in range--you'll probably get one or two shots in during the time it would take to reach melee range with a two-handed sword. Missile weapons ROCK at low levels.

-Max

 

No I havent taken any spell penetration feats at all, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. My sorcerers are probably higher in level than my decoys, because the decoys are ECL races (drow and deep gnome) whereas my sorcerers are human and aasimar.

Hmm, if slings do add strength damage I'll have to give them another look. I saw a +5 sling in the Targos shop, now I'm wishing I bought it. Where do you find returning +1 ammunition?

When I face Limha, at least on normal mode, I just Chromatic Orb her which instantly holds her for long enough for me to kill her trolls, and then take care of her at my leisure. Far fewer enemies seem to fail their saving throw to chromatic orb in HOF.

Still, I've noticed a lot of times, both in normal and in HOF, but far more in HOF, that some enemies just dont react to Chromatic Orb. They get hit by hit, display the purple flash, but dont take any damage, or even display something like "Troll was immune to my magic damage". Its like it doesnt register at all.

The bard song thing... yeah +1 to luck for everyone is good, but I just hate the fact that bard songs only last 3 rounds. Is the damage increase from +1 to luck worth say casting another spell? I feel its a waste of my sorcerers time for him to be singing every 3 rounds, I prefer him to be spellcasting. And I hate the extreme micromanagement required.

 

I got 2 +1 Returning Flame Bullets as quest rewards for giving Lord Pyros an Antidote twice (I kept reloading until I got this rare reward)

Chromatic Orb is very powerful for a lvl1 spell, so it's only fair that many creatures are immune to it. I'm not sure if there's a level limit to its effects, but many high level monsters so have immunity.

As for luck, the micromanagement problem is only there if you insist on using your bard for combat. In my game, my frontliners kave killed thousands of critters by the end of the game, and my bard only had 3 kills (accidental targeting), registering 0% of kills, and 0% of XP earned... I used my bard as decoy (non-combat), singer and spellcaster (non-lethal spells). But you shouldn't conclude that my bard was useless; she was an important participant, if only through her singing.