Too Fat to Graduate?

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I'm sorry but I'll have to call BS on this one. Drug addicts and alcoholics are waaaaaay more distrusted and rejected by society than the obese and quite rightfully so. That is not to say that obesity isn't a major problem. What really gets to me are people who basically say "I may be obese but that's my right and a lifestyle I've chosen!". I completely disagree that being obese is a valid lifestyle choise.

I'm not about to force anyone to risk their health in order to get in shape, that would be completely counter productive. Also I'm not about to force anyone to get in shape, that would not work anyhow. What I'd like to see is mandatory participation in various physical activities in schools and universities (could be very well done outside school hours), and for those who do not wish to/are unable to participate they can sit through the theory to raise awareness about what they could do when they are able/willing to take measures against their poor physical fitness.

 

All I know is that when a person is sent to drug rehab, efforts are made to be hush hush. And in most places it is considered extremely tacky to make fun of a drug addict or an alcoholic. But jokes about fat people abound.

When it comes to trust issues, or hiring, though, I agree with you, Morgoroth. As a society, we don't trust addicts, and I would say with some validity. But sometimes we treat them nicer.

I also don't buy into the "lifestyle choice" argument as you present it -- don't get me wrong. But I spent a large portion of my life being told that I was worth less than my peers because I was big. Not everyone has the same abilities or proclivities, and to humiliate people when you don't have all the facts is a horrible thing to do. Being fat may not always be a "lifestyle choice", but it's not a crime and it's no reason to insult, degrade, or single out a person.

 

Not to mention that we all have wildly different physiology. Not only in how prone a person is to put on what they eat as excess weight but also when it comes to appetite and other more "mental" things. I know several people who really want to gain weight but just can't just as I know some people whose bodies transforms every little extra bit of nourishment into fat.

Genetics plays a major role in our body shapes, sure a person genetically wired to be heavy (or as I like to think of it famine resistant with a highly efficient metabolism) can be in shape but it will take a lot more effort than for someone who is naturally slim. It is like with pretty much everything else, drug abuse, alcoholism, crime some people have the cards stacked against them and others don't.

 

When people are so grossly obese that they infringe on the rights of others (like overflowing an airplane seat and inconveniencing your neighbor) then I can see taking action, even if it hurts their feelings. But beyond that, for God's sake leave the poor people alone. They KNOW they are big, they would very likely enjoy being skinny, but for some people it's really, really low on the priority list, what with other life issues that abound.

I feel the same way about alcoholics -- if you want to drink yourself to death, I likely won't respect you but I'm not going to go out of my way to shame you. But if you touch a steering wheel, then I want you to be dealt with because you are about to affect other people. To use an analogy a bit closer to my airplane one, if you are causing a disturbance in a restaurant, I also want you dealt with, and I don't care about your supposed right to get drunk and be a douche. But if you are just sitting drinking and not bothering me, knock yourself out!

 

You don't need to. I consider the fact that obesity is increasing at an alarming pace as proof enough. It's not like these genetic "quirks" have only recently appeared in our systems, or that our parents lived in constant hunger. We eat more trash and excercise less, it's as simple as that. It's a serious problem and all this "it's about genetics!" "I'm just big boned" etc. argumentation is certainly not helping. It's just like criminals crying that society made them the way they are, there might be something to it, but it's really no excuse.

It's worth noting though that bad fitness is more dangerous than actually being obese and there are less often any sort of valid reasons for having bad fitness, except for being lazy (which I'm sure they'll also find a gene to blame for soon enough).

 

"Bad fitness?" What's that?

 

Sure you can. Just look:

 

Genetics and diseases play some part in obesity, but IMO learned eating and exercising habits and enviromental factors are far more important. We all may have somewhat different physiology, but in the end the human body works the same way. Even those supposed genetic freaks who say they can't gain weight, will eventually start getting heavier if they eat more than they consume.

If obesity would depend on genetics, wouldn't populations which have the same heritage have roughly the same amount of obese people? Few examples: over 30% United States population has BMI over 30, while Canadas percentage is 14,9. I admit that the populations don't have identical gene pools, but the difference is still huge. Another one: Norways BMI 30+ percentage is 7,7, but Iceland (where most people have Norwegian roots to my knowledge) has 12,4%.
Edit: I'm not pointing my finger to certain countries, and as a Finnish I couldn't even do that. Finlands percentage is 12,8 and about two thirds of Finnish men are overweight - myself included.

I agree with Morgoroth in that people eat more trash and do less physically demanding tasks than before, and that the problem is serious - and it's getting worse. But is it enough to humiliate or single out persons? No, or as said numerous time above: then we should start doing that to all people who have bad habits.

 

I see that several people did not read my post but instead made up a post in their head and then responded to that.

 

I fear this has transformed from a discussion thread to "let's hate those stupid lazy fat people".

 

I agree with this completely. Personally, I am quite skinny at 5'10" 150lbs with a 110 cholesterol and 98 glucose, but I am as lazy as can be, eat (almost) only junk food, drink (almost) entirely soda. Ways in which one lives doesn't always affect body type.

I also agree with LKD - courses aimed at a group who are obviously "abnormal" will cause only humiliation which, in most cases, will not help them become "normal." A lot of people deal with things like depression by eating and not exercising, so causing people who are overweight whom already eat too much (so to use that stereotype) and don't exercise (and that stereotype, too) to become depressed (or more depressed) so they eat even more and exercise even less is not a good idea - and they will be humiliated.

I do agree, however, that further exercise programs are needed to help people to stay in or get in shape. PhyEd at school does not really cut it, but it must be mandatory for all if implemented, nor can it be a purely or mostly theoretical course - things need to be done in a gymnasium, pool, weight room, outside or where ever. Theoretically speaking, colleges should have a much better physical education program as they tend to have the money to hire PhysEd personnel for various forms of exercise, making it easier for people to find, use and continue the exercise that is easiest for them.

I agree, though, to an extent with Morgoroth, though, when he said:

Inclinations for obesity aren't new. Given, mutations do exist and may affect some in that manner, mutations of the same kind aren't typically that wide spread of the same kind, especially only in a generation or two. Also, it must be kept in mind that diseases mutate more quickly and could add in a factor of weight gain so they have more food and more space to reproduce - but again, not to that big of an extent. A medium needs to be reached between the two points of view - obesity is ONLY a choice and obesity is NOT a choice. People that feel it is only a choice need to realize it isn't always, but the people who feel that it isn't a choice need to be torn down from their delusions and see that it is a choice for at least half of the obese population.

To those that know they are obese and choose to obese because they don't want to change their lifestyle (for example), I applaud you - you realize that how you are isn't necessarily the best way you can be physically and know how to change it. As long as you aren't so excessively overweight that you overflow into another chair (to use an example previously mentioned), I don't think it affects me any if you are obese or not, again likely previously mentioned, so why should I bother to care if you choose to be the way you are? It isn't my business, just like it isn't anyone else's business that I am lazy and choose to be lazy as long as it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

Up to about fifty years or so ago in the West and still in most parts of the world having a genetic inclination for obesity was a positive survival trait. There just wasnt enough food to go around and you had to spend many many hours of physical labour to get what food you could. The rich has always been fat, people with access to unlimited food have had a tendency to grow fat the only difference is that nowadays in the rich world pretty much everyone has unlimited access to food. Of course more people will be obese as throughout human history it has been an advantage to have an appetite to eat more than you need when the oppurtunity arise. Going to take a while to regear our bodies.

Oh and for the record, I had an A+ in phys ed and I am still obese.

 

By the time people get to college age, and if they can obtain the academic qualifications to enter, IMHO they should be permitted to make their own choices. I'll be honest with you -- there is very little requirement for being phycially fit to be a high school English teacher. Therefore, to get that degree, I don't feel it is necessary for me to be in a physical education class. If I want to get fit, I'll effing well do it myself. In fact, being the kind of guy I am, I am more likely to go the other way and increase my intake of unhealthy foods if people try to force me, bully me, or otherwise "encourage" me to conform to their definition of what a perfect person looks like.

I don't see the doctor any more often than anyone else (so I don't unduly strain the health care system by hogging* medical personel's time), and I make my own money and use it to buy my own food (so no one else is out any money as a result of what I do) - my behaviour doesn't frigging well affect anyone else, and so, to paraphrase DoTW from another thread, people can keep their opinions to themselves if they don't like my body shape.

*Rim shot!

 

I was mostly referring to bad physical endurance, sorry if it was not clear. I more or less directly transelated from Finnish so it's possible that the expression won't work in English.

I know but I fail to see your point. There are also a lot of skinny people with a useless physical endurance. When I was talking about laziness I combined it to physical endurance (I called it fitness which apparently was wrong), not your body size. How you drew the direct connection to being fat is beyond me. Having a lousy physical endurance and being obese obviously often go hand in hand but it ain't always like that, some sports require a heavy body size.

I'm not actually advocating humiliating or singling out anyone. The way physical education is mostly done today is somewhat erronous, but I absolutely reject scrapping it all together and would rather increase and expand it but also allow compensation outside school hours to avoid humiliation and find a sport or physical activity suited for one's body.

No, but being in a bad physical shape and being obese both contribute to shortening your time in the workforce considerably. It's mostly a social issue and not a issue of competence for your individual work.

EDIT: A final note. I'm more interested about fighting against bad physical endurance than obesity. While they both contribute to all sorts of problem I do believe that bad physical endurance has been found to be a lot worse. Bad physical endurance is not only a problem for obese people, it's also a problem for skinny people. It's a problem involving the entire society, however, to be fair in my expiriene someone who is obese is far more likely to be out of shape than a skinny person.

 

@joacqin:
As I had said, PhyEd in school does not really cut it. Basic, basic square dancing (that is all we did in PhyEd in elementary school between 2nd and 4th grades) twice a week isn't enough to cause people who may be over weight to lose any significant weight. I had a D in PhyEd, by the way.

Just because someone has a large appetite, and that was necessary for those that didn't get much food, doesn't equate to being inclined to being overweight or obese. My wife is obese and doesn't eat much and only eats healthy foods (though she is allergic to gluten, dairy, yellow 5, and tomatoes). I am the exact opposite - I eat a lot often, skinny and eat/drink only junky, fatty, sugary foods. Also, having a relatively unlimited fund for food doesn't mean that you'll get fat, much less eat and eat and eat. Sporadic gorging (ie, only when you can eat once a day or so) doesn't cause obesity in the average person, otherwise the average people would be obese. I will concede, however, that the physical labor would slim people down if they had the genetic propensity for obesity, but that doesn't mean everyone was inclined to obesity. Also, if it is going to take a while to regear our bodies toward not being obese when the formerly rich, obese people are no longer obese, then, well, that isn't their bodies, is it?

 

You don't have to apologize, Morgoroth, I was just trying to figure out how you were framing that: Poor health, or poor fitness; they are two different things, although they can be related. All these terms are relative, except health, which is just a general state of being and able to do live your day-to-day life without any physical impediment. I guess being fit is being able to run around the block or something. If that's how some people want to spend their time, that's fine. But I think it's a good way for people to lose weight, rather than trying to diet. But that's just my opinion.

 

No, I was saying that some of them are. I'm also saying that a lot of skinny people aren't fit.

When this becomes a major social problem you might have point. When it's only one in a thousand or so doing this sort of activities it won't have that dire consequences for society as a whole, unlike the surging rate of obesity which is a major social problem (7,7% of all deaths in EU are caused by obesity, quoted from wikipedia). The only intentional health habits that are equally or more dangerous are tobacco and alcohol, from a social perspective of course. If it was all about a few individuals being fat and not about a largescale social problem, I really could not care less. It's a worrysome phenomenon, especially childhood obesity. Gettings kids to exercise and eat healthy is one of the top priorities in educational policy in the future, IMO.