Bard11/Sorc19 vs sorc30, which one is better

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Sorc30
-faster level progression
-damage spells
-buffs last

Bard11/Sorc19
-4 attacks
-better AB
-more skill points, and more 1point skills
-songs
-more spells (89/day@lvl30@cha30)
-no need to invest in spirit of flame + evocation feats = 3 extra feats to spend

The bard11->sorc19 seems far more versatile, while not sacrificing anything significant on the power level. Who needs fireballs with mass dominate. Yet.. how is the buff duration. Would probably be annoying to constantly rebuff, not?

 

I don't mean to rant at you personally but I don't get this idea of judging characters based on what they're like at level 30. In a 6 man party you're not even going to reach this by the end of HOF (I've heard, haven't tried it myself). Surely what matters is how the character performs during the game itself? So, there are three ways of getting the Bard 11 Sorc 19 character.

Get the Sorcerer levels first. Which makes the characters the same really.

Get the Bard levels first. The Sorcerer has far greater spell power.

Split the levels. You're giving up a lot of spellcasting ability for the low level bard songs and a bit better combat ability.

The Bard/Sorc probably isn't the best as your primary caster. Depending on your party he could be a good addition though.

 

I agree, Deise. Judging a character based on its level 30 stats is silly.

As far as a pure sorc vs. a mixed sorc/bard, I'd have to say stick with a pure sorc. In normal mode, multiclassing the sorc will definitely hurt it. Also, bards seem to be best used just standing around and singing, though with Lingering Song, you can multi-task.

In HOF, I could see some switching over to taking bard levels after 20 levels of sorc, but I'm not sure if it's really worth it. Unless you are using some powergaming tactics to increase your XP, a party of 6 will probably only reach about level 26... so you're only looking at about 6 levels of bard, which isn't really much to write home about.

Honestly, in HOF, if you wanted to multiclass a 20th level sorcerer to something else, it might be better to just take fighter levels. You'd probably get more bang for the buck.

 

Déise
Very true, agreed. This isnt however a negative thing either, but actually an advantage. The bard/sorc is constantly improving all the game through, keeping it interesting, while most 1-class chars peak at around lvl20 and there is nothing more to gain leading to a rather static gameplay. lvl30 is ofc possible, especially easy in a 6ppl party, where admittedly the bard/sorc isnt the optimal choice, agreed again, but still any level is possible by simply stopping to levelup.

The reason, well its not a 6ppl but a 3ppl party and there are quite a lot more space problems, leading to this thread. So far consisting out of
- melee damage dealer Druid29/Pal1,
- divine tank Bane27/Rogue1/Monk1/Pal1
- arcane talker

(everyone is LN)

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crucis

This(among other reasons) is why starting with a bard is a far better idea. lvl11 bard and lvl11 sorc are pretty similar. A bard does more than just "stand and sing". Every 3 rounds he casts a casttime 0 spelllike ability "song" and from that point on he is free to do whatever he wants, casting spells like a sorc, attacking with clerics AB etc.

 

Guys this may be a little bit offtopic but sense you guys are speaking about party numbers I thought i'd jump in,

I've done the game twice now in normal with 6 man parties. What's the best number if i wanna drop some chars in the next runthrough

 

Can bards be lawful?

 

no.

at least in the base rules. I think that some mod (EoU?) removes the alignment restrictions.

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I'm not at all sure that I'd want to be too aggressive in comparing a bards and sorcs at any level. Bards' spellcasting abilities aren't all that nasty. Mostly enchantments, so buffs, some summoning, and some healing. In my Windriders party, I tended to use my bard's spellcasting for buffing pre-battle, and had her focus on singing and archery during battles.


As an aside, some of the special bard instruments are actually quite useful.

The lyre that you carry in your offhand and gives you a +3 STR is quite nice when you engage in melee. ((I have to admit that once my bard started using this lyre, particularly in combo with Mirror Image, she was actually not too bad in melee. Wouldn't want to have to use her against a Slayer Knight, but she could hold her own against lesser melee cannon fodder.))

The horn that summons about 2-4 berzerkers is really nice. I used this one fairly frequently.

There's some "guitar" like instrument that lets you cast Emotion Hope (though I suspect that most people have already selected that spell for their bard's spellbook).

And there's some flute (or whatever) that lets you cast a Cone of Cold, though I have to admit to having never used that one, since I was keeping my bard in the rear and didn't want to freeze my own troops.


I barely worried about the Unstrung Harp, a harp that allows a bard to cast a Heal spell once a day, because 1) you don't get it until so very close to the end, and 2) it has a WIS requirement of 13, which for a bard is just asking too much. (Good bards are already having to pump up CHA, INT, with some points into STR and DEX. There are only so many to go around, and WIS certainly isn't one to get any addition points. Heck, it's probably a good idea to lower a bard's WIS to 8 just to get a couple of points for elsewhere.)

==


As far as the songs go...

I got plenty of mileage out of "Three Heroes" (Level 1) and "Tymora's Melody" (level 5), and of course the "War Chant of the Sith" (level 11). I only recall using "Curran Strongheart" (level 3) the anti-fear song against The Guardian. I tried the Siren's Yearning (level 9) "enthralling" song a few times, but don't recall ever "enthralling" any enemy. It didn't seem worth the trouble, when I was much more certain that the L1 or L5 spell would work just fine.

And there's no doubt about it ... Lingering Song should be a "must take at creation" feat for all bards. I'm not sure that any other feat gets as much bang for the buck for any class as Lingering Song does for Bards.

 

The Bard class itself is pretty good in IWD2, it's the multi-class bard/x characters that have problems adjusting to most party types.
Most of the disadvantages of this particular have already been mentioned. One other is that Sorc/Bard micromanagement = Sorc micromanagement+Bard micromanagemenet, as the Sorc and Bard have very different roles. I don't think you should rely on your Bard buffs, but they'll last long enough for the average encounter I guess. Wouldn't use them against enemies with dispel.
You've already mentioned most of the advantages, and it is a more interesting character to play at higher levels. Most people don't care too much about multiclassing at that stage of the game tho, so your choice.

Edit:
One other good bard item is Viol of Hollow Men. Besides having an interesting background story, it allows you to cast the Shades spell once per day.

 

Well, Scythesong, possibly the Bard's best buffing spell, Emotion Hope, doesn't have a duration tied to levels. It's a flat 50 rounds (which seems like a bit of a bug, but what the heck). At 50 rounds, you can afford to cast it well before any foreseen battle.

It's other good buff, Bull's STR, has a duration listed in hours per level, so I don't think that duration will be a problem there either.

But you're probably correct about other buffs. Also, it's worth noting that (I think) you aggressively multiclass a sorc and a bard, all of their buffing spells and any other spells tied to # of levels (for damage or duration) will be hurt by being multi-classed.

I think that if one wanted to multiclass a bard, it'd probably be better to avoid taking a second spellcasting class and go with something like fighter levels or rogue levels. That said, if you started as a bard and took 11 levels without interruption, it might be better to just take fighter levels. But if you were trying to MC the character from the start as a combo bard/rogue, then you should probably intersperse the levels as you go. However, that would only end up delaying the bard getting to level 11, which, if you're going to take more than 1 bard level at all, is pretty much the goal of any bard... get to level 11 and get the War Chant song. Frankly, much as I like rogues, getting that War Chant song ASAP is probably worth more than the rogue levels.

 

IMO Mass Haste is the best Bard buff by far, spell-wise. He won't be able to use it tho, like most of the other multiclass Bard builds (Bardic Mass Haste). I don't think taking 11 Bards levels is worth it (as a multiclass) unless you're at that point in the game when level ups don't mean that much anymore (seems the original poster is at this point).
Not worth the effort, though I also think that it can be viable if you're also taking levels in some the martial classes.

 

OK, I yield that Mass Haste is probably the best. But as a level 6 bard spell, you might be able to get it before the end of normal mode. You will, of course, be able to get it in HOF, as long as you keep taking bard levels.

Honestly, I tend to look at spells that you get a little earlier in the game simply because you'll have them long enough to get some use out of them in normal mode.

 

(Raised eyebrows.) A Dreadmaster/Paladin?

-Max

P.S. On Fireballs vs. Mass Dominate, 50% more duration for Mass Dominate is nontrivial. Also, better Shades/Shadow Monsters are nice. All in all, I expect I'd get my bard levels on a different character but Bard11 is a defensible choice... if you are okay with level squatting.

 

Yep, a lvl11 bard loses out on mass haste, early on until the sorc part doesnt catch up, but this isnt a problem in a smaller party, since he can cast regular haste instead.(and ~twice the amount later, with sorc+bard hastes). Everything else is actually better, most good spells have fixed or long durations. And for example the mentioned Emotion:Hope is actually a lvl3 spell for a bard, and lvl4 for a sorc, go figure. + songs

crucis

Thats true, although.. Mordenkainens Sword which is a very good spell to have, will deal more damage because a Bard/sorc has more attacks and a luck song(rock on, crits). Mass Dominate - same DC. Seriously i cant think of any spell of significance where the above would really apply, short of dispel.

This reminds me, Scythesong Immortal is spell resistance penetration caster or character level dependent?

 

If the idea is what to do with the levels after your bard hits level 11 then it's probably not a bad one. As Crucis said, a pure sorcerer would get higher level spells more quickly and has a better spell list so I wouldn't underestimate the difference between the two. A bard seems a curious choice to me in a three person party, there's only two others to benefit from his singing. I'll admit bards have no appeal to me anyway.

 

+2 AC.. Only tanks benefit so party size pretty irrelevant.

 

But depending on how your tanks are built, that +2 might be the difference of them getting hit only 5% of the time or 15% of the time, or generally being able to substitute short-term buffs with a bit weaker long-term buffs against somewhat leaner enemies. (Say, Ghost armor instead of Divine Shell.) If tripling your life expectancy for your party's tanks ain't worth it, I don't know what is.

 

Caster level dependent. But most enemies with high SR in IWD2 also have numerous immunities that you probably wouldn't use SR-affected spells on them anyway.
Btw Dispel is also caster level dependent, so if you're using AI mods...

 

I agree that a bard is a curious choice in a small party. Having said that, I've also not been a fan of IWD2 bards. But after having played a bard in my last party (last weekend), I've got to say that they're actually pretty good, as long as you're not expecting too much.

Yes, a bard's best use is to be singing. But with a good build, and synced up with the rest of the party's builds, you can get a lot of mileage form a bard. What I mean by synced up with the rest of the party is this... bards are good party spokesmen, so you can have them load up on the talking skills and relieve the need for the party sorc to spend SP on diplomacy (and possibly reduce its INT). The bard can also take alchemy as an in-class skill and further relieve a party's sorc of that burden. Ditto for Knowledge Arcana (and actually bards are better here when you factor in "bardic knowledge").

Also, bards can help with the buffing duties pre-battle and allow your more offensive spellcasters to retain more of their useful in-battle spell slots.

With the bard I played, I gave her a 14 STR and a 14 DEX, so that she could be half decent in both melee and archery. (Also, since the LOS mod includes STR requirements on different bow types, I wanted her to be able to use most composite longbows, hence the 14 STR.)

All in all, I have to say that bard make a surprisingly nice support characters.

 

On the subject of basics, pure Bards also make good summoners because of the Shades and Summon Shadow line of spells, which scale with levels. As mentioned they have good buffs, good debuffs, and they also get Wail of the Banshee. They have use magical device (resurrection scrolls, etc) along with those good communication (side) skills. Their songs are just icing on top.
So all in all they make very good support and utility characters. Of course, you will still need a true tank/nuker/damager etc to complete your party. You could also take another Bard (their songs stack and their ability complement each others').

Bard in a small-ish party is weird, yeah. Not saying it shouldn't be done tho, since it has its advantages. Especially with the way XP works in IWD2 and stuff.

 

summonning is not exacty the thing of arcane casters, with Druids and Clerics around, having entire levels with nothing worth to memorize but summoning spells. Like lvl9 cleric, or lvl7 druid. Besides 1on1 arcane shade summon loses vs an elemental and the druid summons lots of them with just one spell(and much earlier too)

Sir Rechet
Yes thats what im saying basically. The difference between being hit on a 20 and on an 18 is immense. thus every party with a tank has to have a bard, regardless of size. Or face severe micromanaging probs with short terms buffs, summons, running away, ect. Or simply dying.

Not exaclty sure what people think makes a bard more useful in a 6ppl party.