Bard11/Sorc19 vs sorc30, which one is better

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They get WotB so late that it barely matters... You'd almost have to level-squat or do some other power-gaming things (or play a very small party) to get a bard enough XP to reach the level that they'd get WotB.

As for summons, you are correct, though I don't recall using any of those spells (even though I selected them) with my bard. My bard rarely ever cast spells in battle. (My loss, I suppose.) Her casting was mostly buffing. And in battle, she focused on singing and archery (with a little melee later in the game, when necessary).

I should say however that were I to play that party into HOF mode, I'd probably make more aggressive use of her summoning spells.

And BTW, speaking of their skills, note that a benefit that you get from those skills is that other characters don't need to take them. For example, a sorc that doesn't need to take diplomacy, or even alchemy or knowledge arcana, may be able to make do with lower INT stat and use the saved stat points elsewhere. The ability of a bard to take on a large skills load means that other characters can be more powerful without having to dedicate stat points to those skills.

 

Yep, any alignment is possible. Whats not possible it to levelup with the wrong alignment. IWD2 just doesnt have any quests which change alignment. BG1, BG2, nwn1, nwn2 do.

spmdw45
Lined up right behind the paladin/rogue drow.

 

Shades and Summon Shadow scale with level. You'll be surprised what a high level arcane caster can summon with it at around 15 and better.

I also use my bard to do ranged attacks, although technically it's not archery. I use throwing axes, as basically anyone with medium BAB or higher can do immense damage with them. Works very well with the luck boosting buffs Bards have as they have a x3 crit mod.

Not sure bards can be lawful, or Pal/Bards would be the norm.

 

Bards can't be Lawful without mods, so no Bard/Paladins. You can't even take that level as a bard if you're lawful, so none of this "no leveling in a class you have conflicting alignment for" stuff either. (Unless you want to nitpick that everyone is a level zero in everything by default and get to pick one level advancement at character creation..)

 

Shades (Gelugons) loses vs. elementals? That doesn't sound right to me, especially given that elementals aren't controllable and that if you summon more than one they will end up fighting each other.

-Max

 

spmdw45
Thats what i got with testing yes (hof mode). Elementals went for enemy always and were idle if nothing in range(party protected by protEvil)

 

That's interesting. Did you try Elemental Legion or just the summon X elemental spell? JUPP claims that Elemental Legion elementals will just attack each other.

-Max

 

I have tried Nature's Ally 8, 9 and Legion. All of them summon elementals later. Sometimes a horde of polar bears(the nature line). Summon IX summons Frost Giants. Elementals did not attack each other even w/o protevil. Anyways the druid can flood the place with summons @lvl17 for free, where an arcane caster requires lvl27 to get 1 summon of questionable quality. And speaking of party unfriendly, Gelugons have a fear aura active, definitely not party friendly. Having half the party scared by your own summon should be pretty.. annoying, to say the least.

 

To be fair, I haven't tested Elemental Legion all that much. I just assumed that they'd do the same routine as any two gated demons will, a.k.a fight each other as soon as there's nothing more to kill. Good to know if this isn't the case.

 

Cool. I just tried Elemental Legion this morning and you're right, it is a nice summoning spell with lots of durability and decent damage. It's still too bad they're not controllable because it means they're really only good for one fight unless you lure monsters back to the elementals, but summoning a whole bunch of large-size creatures might be good for some fights. I may end up memorizing a copy of this spell in lieu of a Tremor.

The Gelugon fear aura is only annoying if you don't have a bard, though.

-Max

 

Summoning an uncontrollable demon is a pretty good tactic against Saablic Tan, particularly in HOF mode. Just summon the demon right in front of Saablic Tan and it really gets his attention in a hurry. And because it's well behind enemy lines, you may not even have to worry about a lack of Protection from Evil immediately. IIRC, Tan and his buddies may be able to deal with the demon, but it would completely distract them from your party. And even if the demon does somehow survive, it'll likely be so hurt that taking it out on your own shouldn't be too difficult.

 

Thinking about this a bit more... if I were going to do a Bard11/Sorc19 split, I probably wouldn't do any of these three methods. Early on in normal mode, early access to Fireball and Stoneskin make an incredible difference so you want to prioritize getting to Sorc8. Still, I can never resist the benefits of Lingering Song (+1 to everybody, unlimited uses per day!). So I'd probably take a human and then go Bard1 => Bard1/Sorc8 => Bard11/Sorc8, and then finish filling out any more sorc levels in HoF mode. That way you're getting the early spells when they're most critical, and except for the dead zone between Bard5 and Bard11 you're continually getting better party buffs. Obviously this guy would be statted out as a ranged berserker (high STR/DEX as well as maxed CHA) so even in the dead zone you're still accumulating value. Plus you'll have LOTS of level 2 slots for Mirror Image so you can even be a melee berserker if you want.

-Max

 

I probably wouldnt do that. The whole point of bard is to get the Sith song ASAP. It is immensely powerful, and imho easily tops out Stoneskin. Lets see.

Monster group: combined 6 atk/rnd, dealing 10damage per hit
I: AC 18: 17misses/3 hits +150hp from stoneskin
II:AC 20: 19misses/1hit with Sith song

Round 20(120rolls)
I: 18hits=>18*10=180damage. Stoneskin lost, character injured. Healing needed.
II: 6hits=>6*(10-2DR)=>48damage-20*3regen=-12 damage=character is at full health. No spells used.

I didnt calculate critical hits, as i dont know for sure how they are calculated in iwd2. It would change the result in favor of stoneskin, but not for much.

 

Regarding critical hits, I think that you could safely assume that 5% of all hits were critical hits.

As for the rest, don't forget that the Sith song will affect everyone in the party, not just the bard, whereas one casting of Stoneskin will only protect whomever it's cast upon.

Also, the Sith song can be used outside of combat (well, you may need the Ease of Use mod's section that allows this...) to healing. Oh, unless you have immense patience, I wouldn't bother using it for major healing, but it is good for cleaning up the various cuts and scratches your characters might have accumulated during battle.


As for the other songs, I'm not sure whether it's better to have a -2 AC bonus or a +1 AB bonus. It might depend on the foe. Against the Guardian (if you have a pally, or have cast resist fear on the party), the +1 to-hit might be more valuable, at least initially. It's also worth noting that the dragon is going to be doing damage in such large chunks that I'm not sure that the Sith healing would really keep pace. It might be better to have a better AB for all of your characters in the hope of taking down the dragon that much quicker, and using a cleric or druid for serious healing.

And of course, if a party doesn't have a paladin, or if it doesn't have the ability to cast Resist Fear, then the bard's anti-fear song will come in handy.

 

Crucis, you make it sound like the bard song are either-or. With Lingering song, you can keep every one of them active at once. Or, if you want to be pedantic about the rules and implementation in IWD2, three of them. The one you're singing at the very moment plus two others still Lingering out, assuming song activation happens once per round.

 

Well, that's kind of a contrived example, since in this example the +2 AC from WSOTS just HAPPENS to come at the most effective point in the AC curve. In normal mode there are so many other ways to boost AC that this isn't going to be a factor. The extra healing from WSOTS is nice, but it won't save you in any genuinely threatening situation (e.g. getting mobbed by a large number of enemies) and that's where Stoneskin really proves its value vis-a-vis healing spells, since there's really no micro involved in keeping an 80-HP Stoneskin up whereas it's tough to jump in and Heal a 100-HP character just at the resource-optimal time, which is right before he loses his last HP in order to stretch out your Heal spells. This is why I suspect getting Sorc8 would be valuable early on, moreso than having Bard11 ASAP.

On the other hand, after you finish normal mode and are into HoF, monster BABs start rising and you're already maxed out on AC boosts, you definitely don't want to wait until you have a Sorc19 before finishing off Bard11 because WSOTS is vital to getting those last few AC points to push you above 72, exactly as per your example.

On the gripping hand, ideally you want more than one Sorc in the party anyway, and especially you want more than a Sorc8 throughout normal mode. And once you have one Sorc already, you'd rather have Stoneskin AND WSOTS than just Stoneskin. So the optimal party build involves going straight for Bard11 after all and only then (possibly) taking Sorc levels.

-Max