Civ IV

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It's the little things that make this game so complicated, it takes some time to find out some of these things and I've still many tricks to learn.

I wouldn't have gone after Sitting Bull because of the UU, it's fearsome early in the game. Tokugawa is hard to befriend so I would have tried to share a religion with Sitting Bull in order to be best buddies and avoid facing them both (worst case scenario). Given that Tokugawa is such an isolationist it would probably have paid off well.

Tokugawa's traits (aggressive/protective) are not that good for a player but they make for better units straight from the barracks so outnumbering him and picking your fights would have been necessary.

Samurais are good but IMO they are nowhere near Cho No Kus. The chinese UU is one that I really hate facing before rifles because of the collateral damage (Qin Shi Huang is protective too). If you went straight for catapults I doubt that he would have had Samurais by that time. Sitting Bull is a bad techer and if there was no other civ to trade techs with, you would have been safe for a while. I'm pretty sure you could have gathered a huge army long before Samurais.

Both Tokugawa and Sitting Bull can bear a grudge but Sitting Bull really keeps scores, it's almost impossible to get him to forget your misdeeds and when he is mad at you he will refuse to talk for ages (literally).

When there is a protective leader nearby I tend to make his or her elimination my number one priority. The more you wait the more costly the war is going to be. Of course fighting such wars will take a toll on your economy. Still, it's not impossible to recover once you've secured your continent and gained a large landmass but protective neighbours make securing your continent much more difficult.

 

I agree that Cho Ko Nus are more devastating than Samuris, but I wasn't playing the Chinese. I do have one question regarding Cho Ko Nus - you definitely build them for the collateral damage, but I also notice that they list them as having 2 first strikes. Is that counting the one they get automatically becaues both Chinese leaders have the protective trait, or do they get two first strikes in addition to getting a free one from having a protective leader, which would take them up to three first strikes? With the Chinese you only build seige weapons to take down city defenses - the Cho Ko Nus are the better option when it comes to wasting a unit to weaken defenders in a city.

That said, the Samuri are no slouches either. They get two first strikes in addition to getting the 50% vs. melee that the maceman gets. Plus, since Tokugawa is aggressive, they also get the Combat I promotion automatically.

 

I may be wrong but I don't think that leader traits are taken into account in the description of the base unit.

Regular Crossbows get +50% vs melee and 1 first strike whereas Cho Ko Nu (I got the spelling right this time) get 2 first strikes and collateral damage.

It's been a while since I've played them so that's something Harbourboy will probably be able to clear out for us.

It would seem logical though because otherwise Samurai would automatically be listed as getting combat promotion (Tokugawa is aggressive) and like you said they're only listed as having 2 first strikes (which is a HUGE bonus compared to regular Macemen).

 

I tend to agree with your analysis. They only call out a specific promotion if they get that in addition to whatever they would get for the leader. For example, Huayna Capac isn't aggresive, so they specifically state in the description that Quechuas start with Combat I. I don't think they'd state that if it was given as a promotion from an aggressive leader. That leads me to believe that Cho Ko Nus start with THREE first strikes, which should be devastating. Even against a much more powerful stack, three first strikes should do significant collateral damage. It's one of the the few instances where the protective trait comes in handy, as first strike is both an offensive and defensive promotion.

 

Never bother going after Sitting Bull early in the game. It would be a huge waste of resources. If you must take him on the restrict yourself to stealing his workers and pillaging his resources. His cities are far too impregnable until you get Catapults and Macemen.

 

In one of the guides I'm reading I noticed an odd statistic - it has a note next to all the missionaries "maximum of 3". I take it they mean a maximum of three at any given time. I'm sure I've built more than 3 missionaries of a particular type in my games. In fact, if you hit a lull in what a city can build, or don't particularly needs additional choices, spreading your state religion is a pretty solid option.

 

There is definitely a limit to the number of missionaries (and corporate excutives) you can train at the same time. I would have thought it was 3 as well but I don't remember exactly.

 

You can have three missionaries of each religion at any given time. Most of the time this is not an issue as they get consumed when they spread a religion but if they have a long way to travel it can get annoying.

 

Yeah - that's definitely true. I never build missionaries just to hang around. I build them for immediate use. I also tend to use a high hammer city to build them as quickly as possible, and will frequently build them consecutively. However, by the time you're ready to build a 4th missionary, the first one has usually already arrived at the target city.

What are your guys thoughts on building monastraries? I don't build them often - usually only one per religion. The science boost just doesn't seem high enough to justify the time it take to build them, which is often significant (especially considering I usually switch to the religious civic fairly early that lets you build missionaries without monasteries, and spread my state religion early).

 

I like monasteries, prior to Free Religion and Scientific Method they work really well for a religious game. IMO the key is getting them soon enough so you can get some use from the science bonus.

Religious buildings work well together for gold, happiness and culture with the right wonders. That being said spreading your religion is an important factor (getting the Apostolic Palace as well).

I used to focus more on religion but now if I can't found one (or take the Holy City) and spread it I'll just focus on Liberalism and switch to Free Religion.

I think that trying out different strategies really do justice to the complexity of this game. If building monasteries fits into my plan and my civ can benefit from them I just build them. I'm partial to Theocracy and I switch to Organized Religion for the bonus to buidling production rather than the ability to train missionaries without monasteries.

 

I usually build monasteries in most cities, especially if I get an early religion - don't bother building much of them in late Middle age. I don't use a lot of missionaries though, but I actively try to spread religion to big (=unhappy) or military cities (w/ Vassalage & Theocracy). The research bonus isn't huge, but every little bit helps. Besides, monasteries usually are available at a time when there isn't much else to build anyways.

 

The limit of 3 missionaries at a time really comes into play when you're trying to time the optimal distribution of your religion to get your Apostolic Palace vote.

 

I tried another game last night on Prince, as the Incas again. (I figured I should try with an easier civ for my first try.) Some good and bad. The good was that I eliminated two civs (Americans with Lincoln, Indians with Ghandi) with Quechuas very early in the game and took both capitals. You'd think that I'd be in great shape, but the problem was both cities were relatively far from my capital, and had high upkeep costs. Part of the problem was that I slightly delayed researching pottery - and thus could not build cottages.

I took Meditation first. Since the Incas start with Mysticism, getting one of the two early religions before anyone else seemed like a good idea. However, I think I picked the wrong one. While Meditation is slightly cheaper to research than Polytheism, Polytheism is a required tech for Monotheism, whereas Meditation is not (and Priesthood can be researched with either Meditation or Polytheism as a prerequisite tech). I don't usually get one of the very early religions, and I usually end up trading for these techs later, which expalins in part why I may have screwed this up. Confucianism is typically the first religion I found, and I usually found Taoism as well.

Anyway, I think I should forgo any early religious research as my first tech. After Meditation, I teched Wheel and Animal Husbandry to access my early resources (I already had Agriculture as a starting tech), and after that Mining and Bronze Working. My economy cratered just as I was finishing Bronze Working, and on epic game speed with a 20% science rate, pottery took 46 turns to research. I built cottages like crazy as soon as I was able, and my economy did recover. However, I now find that I'm behind quite a bit in the tech race (mostly due to 46 turns for pottery). In hindsight, it would have been wiser to take pottery BEFORE Mining and Bronze Working. I didn't need bronze working to take out the rival civs, and being able to start building cottages earlier would have helped a ton.

I may have to start this one over again. Ah well, no one said Prince would be easy.

 

Well, Aldeth, if you have more land and cities than anyone else then the game is not necessarily over. Once your economy recovers you'll tech much faster than smaller civs and with some bulbing you can get your hands on some tehcs that you can then trade around to get back in the race. Spies can help too since early in the game you can still get free techs that way (it's way harder later on). Beelining a tech that the AI is not researching can get you back in the lead.

That being said, I find that going after an early religion when you can get more valuable worker techs instead is not the best move at Prince (that probably applies to all difficulties above Noble). Building improvements earlier is probably better than getting an early religion. The best option is to have a neighbour who gets an early religion so you can capture the Holy City and benefit from it without crippling your early game.

Religions that are founded much later are not so interesting because they take a long time and much effort to spread around (except if you have access to an entire continent without religion of course).

In one of my first games before Beyond the Sword I once managed (on Settler difficulty!) to get all religions and I ended up beeing attacked by all the AIs... Quite a feat considering the difficulty level I was playing on. Ever since I've stopped going after religions and if I found Christianity or Confucianism it's because I was aiming for Theocracy or Courthouses and got there first.

In that game you could have waited for Gandhi to found a religion and then take him out. The income bonus would have made up for the hit to your upkeep costs quite nicely.

I like the Sumerian Empire because Ziggurats are very useful buildings and they don't require Code of Laws. In most games getting Code of Laws and Currency is a great way to salvage your economy after a rapid expansion.

 

Good points. Like I said previously, my biggest mistake was taking Mining and Bronze Working before I took Pottery. On epic game speed, Bronze Working is a signficant commitment - even if you're running a 100% science rate, you're looking at about 30 turns for that tech. Pottery requires about 15, and Mining about 10. So if I had taken Pottery first, I would have had 40 more turns to build cottages, which may well have been sufficient to save my economy - or at least I wouldn't have had my science drop to 20%.

 

I'm currently playing a prince game as the Inca's as well. Have Brennus, Alexander, the koreans, and issy on a standard pangea map. After taking out Ragnar in a quecha rush and "aggressive expasion" I was fourth in score, but still in the game. I built some infrastructure got code of laws and currency and recovered to aroudn 50% research. I attacked Brennus to my immediate south and took two of his cities. I got peace and rebuilt cats for the final invasion.....too bad that didnt go as well as planned. I had my stack of doom ready and in place to move and Alexander declares war on me
Since he is on my northwest, I had to pull the stack back to defend. he fails to do anything but pillage a few farms and I end up taking Thebes from him. Then Ragnar goes WHEOOHRN....so I expect an attack on me to retake his cities. Sure enough he declares on me and pillages one of his former cities and tries to recapture. i basically just sent 5 elephants down there to help until I can get my large army down to help. Got peace with Alexander and went down to get Brennus. Took his capital and got izzy in the war to destroy his other city and then vassalize him.

I am now in the lead and still with large army intact. I focus back to teching and building some grocers, etc to get economy back in order. It's now around 1450 ad. I am still within the tech race and have plenty of land to boot. I think I will attack and finish off Alexander next or at least vassalize him since he is very weak. The only civ im worried about is Issy. When she attacked rag, she had tons of conquistadors and knight that she sent to war. But with my new lands comming onboard and new lands with Alexander..I should be able to overwhelm her with force if need be. The koreans are behind in tech. Also izzy is unlikely to attack me since she if friendly with me (Izzy is actually a good ally, who woulda thought?) I am close to reseraching calvary and rifling in the not too distant future. The game is really mine to lose now.

I think the biggest reason for succes this game was land grabbing. Before i would stick to like 5 cities and that was never enough. If i didnt get in wars often the ai's would outtech me bad. This game I think i had about 8 cities before I went to my first war...really makes a difference. Also have been improving Diplomatically as well. I used to research same techs as ai and never trade. now i research ones they dont and just trade to catch up....funny how easy it actually is thanks to some of you guys' tips

 

Isabella is a good ally... if you are the same religion as she is. Not so good otherwise. Tech trading is definitely the way to go. It is odd the way the AI prioritizes techs. For example, it appears that they don't put an emphasis on Code of Laws, and as a result, also no Civil Service. So if you get it first, you can usually trade it for multiple other lower techs.

 

Aldeth, as with most things in this game, an early religion is only useful if . . . . it directly supports your strategy and provides an immediate benefit. In some cases it does.

I wouldn't be so swift to dismiss mining and bronze working. Carefully orchestrated chopping is another of the areas where the best players can pull ahead of the average players in the early part of the game. What's your early game strategy: rapid expansion?, Civil Service from Oracle?, axe rush? - whatever it is, chopping forests to get there can give a huge boost. Advanced players lick their lips when they see a start position surrounded by lots of forests.

 

But that's the thing - I had some forrests, but not a ton. I'd say my start position had about five forrested tiles in my 20-square cross. I wasn't dismissing Bronze Working or Mining - I wouldn't have selected them as early techs if I did. I'm just saying I should have taken Pottery first. I had a couple of squares of corn and pigs that my worker could have done before doing the forrests.

I know you say that you should have a strategy going into a game, and while that's fine, I also think your strategy has to be flexible enough to allow for game conditions that cannot be predicted ahead of time. While my game dictated a rapid expansion early, since I was playing the Incas, that could be accomplished with base units. However, I was also trying to build the Oracle to get CoL.

(Note, I don't see what the big deal is with wanting Civil Service from the Oracle. Not only does it require you to research CoL before you build the Oracle (which can make timing it difficult), but it locks you into a very specific tech path early in the game to make sure you can get the necessary techs and build it before an opposing civ does. Is it for Bureaucracy? I don't see civil service as a quick path to macemen - you still need both metal casting and machinery, which aren't cheap techs early in the game either.)

 

Isabella is a religious freak, if you share a state religion with her she will be a very good ally. If you don't expect a war sooner or later.

I'm always wary about trading techs like civil service and feudalism. I don't want my foes to have macemen and longbows when I attack them.

Provided you don't cripple your early economy getting as much land as possible is always a good thing.

Don't pay too much attention to your science slider. Keeping it at 100% shouldn't be a priority. The more cities you have, the faster you'll tech. It doesn't matter if your slider is down to 60% if you have many cities you won't notice the difference and in time it will only get better, much better.

Some civs like Mali will tech well with only a few cities but once your economy has recovered from early expansion you will out tech them and take up the lead. If you let an AI get more land than you because you want to keep the slider at 100% you'll have a hard time keeping up and unless you're aiming for culture or manage a successful war to seize more land you'll probably end up losing the game.

That's the reason why I dislike custom continents. If you're out of luck you're on a smallish continent with a neighbour who is a protective leader and who can't tech to save his life so you have to way for astronomy to get to new landmasses only to find out that some land grabbing mean AI has taken the largest chunk and is well ahead of you because it started off on a much bigger continent with pushover AIs.

EDIT after reading the last two posts:

Most of the time I pick Metal Casting from the Oracle. It's usually the most expensive tech at that time and I like forges. What are your favourite picks?

Say Harbourboy, would you care to share some tips about chopping and slavery? I usually use slavery to get basic infrastructure and hurry production for cities with ample food ressources and chopping to get the few wonders that I really want for that particular game.

Forest tiles have their use but the jungle is utterly awful though. It makes Iron Working a necessity very early.