A couple of multiclassing questions

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Hello all, a couple of newbie questions here.

1) Can a multiclassed character wield a weapon in whose description says that it cannot be used by one of the character's classes (the character having at least a class that permits the usage of that weapon) ?

2) Is a Wild Elf Sorcerer X / Fighter 4 / Rogue 3 with focus on DEX and CHA a viable build or is it something totally wrong ? I was planning to get weapon specialization in Bows and the Rogue levels for evasion.

 

Welcome gunman!

1 - Yes, any character can wield any weapon. Certain classes are onlyproficient in their usage. Any warrior type is proficent with any weapon, except Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword. No class starts with that proficiency. So, if you are multi-classing, yes, for example, a Fig/Cleric can use a Greatsword without penalty.

2 - It depends on you. If you are only looking to play thru the regular game and not playthru Heart of Fury mode once the game is beaten, than sure, it is viable. If you are playing a six man team in the vanilla game, any character build will work, it is all about how you utilize their tactics. I wouldn't make that build my main Arcane Caster though, as you will only achieve a spellcasting ability of 5th level with that character at best. I do see potential in that build as a good support character.

 

Regarding point 1, I asked this because in some special weapons description, such as Iron Arbalest or Cera Sumat, I saw:

Not usable by:
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
...

So Cera Sumat can be used by a Paladin/Fighter even if in its description it is not usable by Fighter?

 

Sometimes item descriptions can be confusing. When an item is 'bard only' for example, you just need a level bard to use it. Classes are inclusive in terms of item usage, taking a class won't exclude usage.

Cera Sumat can even be used by a paladin1/sorcererX

 

Simply put, if an item says that a certain class cannot use said item, it is still possible for a multiclassed character to use that item if one of its other classes is one of the classes that CAN use the item.

gunman, please note that this is Coin's way of razzing me cuz I think that a pally 1/sorc X build shouldn't be allowed to use Cera Sumat, since a pally 1/Sorc X isn't a "true" paladin, but a dilettante pally wannabe.


So, coin .... right back atcha!

 

You need a (specialist) wizard or sorcerer and a cleric in the party to gain access to spells when you're supposed to, for the remaining 4 characters you can take what you want without getting into trouble, so this character will work.

The question is: how do you want to play this character ?

Why do you want this character to be a sorcerer 7 levels lower than a pure sorcerer would be ?
Since the offensive spells will be lousy compared to a caster 7 levels higher I assume you want to protect yourself with mirror image.
But archers in the back aren't attacked very often, so extra BAB for doing more damage shooting at enemies so they don't kill party members is more important ...

The biggest benefits from 3 rogue levels are 2-12 sneak attack damage and extra skillpoints if you have decent int but stat points are better spent elsewhere (1 int is enough) and you can't sneak attack with bows.

I don't think it's worth taking rogue levels just for evasion. You'll hardly ever have to make a reflex save for damage and even without evasion you'll only take half damage when the save is made. With 3 barbarian levels instead you'll get 18 extra hitpoints permanently (you'll also get +1 BAB and faster speed) which helps more than taking 0 instead of 15 damage once or twice during the whole game and if you take sorcerer levels instead the casting power will be much greater.
If you absolutely want evasion you could also take monk instead of rogue levels (you'll have to take the monk levels between the 2nd and 3rd fighter level), you'll get more hitpoints, better saves, speed and a free deflect arrows feat.

If I'd play a "Wild Elf Sorcerer X / Fighter 4 / Rogue 3" archer I'd take the stats (str-dex-con-int-wis-cha) 16-20-18-1-3-18.

 

Generally speaking, multi-classing your casters is a bad idea. As they gain new spell levels, a caster's power increases exponentially rather than incrementally. The only caster multi-class I would even consider would be Paladin 2-4/ClericX since Clerics can still cast in Armor, have a decent BAB progression, and you get all the good stuff out of the Paladin Class by level 3 anyway. A lot of people like the Rogue 1-2/Wizard X multi-class, but I'm not a fan. You end up with a crappy Rogue and a wizard who is always a caster level behind. Not good. If you want to multi-classl your Rogue, they do it quite well with Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian. If you plan to do this, I'd make my Rogue an archer, splash in a four levels of Fighter for specialization*, and call it a day. If you're particularly sneaky, though, going straight Rogue for a higher sneak attack can be better.

* Anyone who's ever visited a char-op board knows that specialization is usually a waste of two feats, but the stuff that is "better" than specialization really isn't available in IWD2 -- even if it were, specialization is actually the best you can do for an archer with core rules, anyway, since archers can't use power attack.

 

I understand what you're saying here, Drew, about Rog 1-2/Wizzy X builds. But I think that another often unspoken reason why it's a popular build is that in vanilla IWD2, there's a certain lack of scrolls at a certain point in the game*, and being a level behind isn't exactly a killer for this reason.

* Hopefully, this deficiency will be fixed in the next rev of my Light of Selune mod.

I agree with you here for the most part. The best rogue multiclass combos just add in a certain number of fighter, ranger, or, I suppose, barbarian levels.

I would say however that I think that even a Ftr 4/Rogue X build can be a very nice sneak attacker and can hold its own in melee. I don't think that I'd put him shoulder to shoulder with a plate wearing tank, but used with care, such a character can be nasty in melee, given the proper circumstances.

Well, for whatever it's worth, rev 2 of my LOS mod does enhance the weapon focus and specialization feats. Are they good enough that they're not a "waste"? I don't know. I'd like to hope so.

 

Thanks for your answers.

Yes, the Sorc X/Ftr 4/Rog 3 will be a supporting caster. I've planned my 4 characters party to look like:

Paladin X / Ftr 4 : diplomat, main tank, melee fighter
Sorcerer X / Ftr 4 / Rogue 3 : ranged attacks, supporting spells, occasional decoy, kind of jack-of-all-trades
Cleric : main divine caster
Wizard : main arcane caster

My starting party in detail:

Theodril
Male Aasimar
Lawful Good
Paladin of Helm
STR 12, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 16

Zarim
Male Wild Elf
Neutral Good
Fighter (will become Sorcerer/Fighter/Rogue)
STR 8, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 18

Aramis
Male Human
Lawful Good
Watcher of Helm
STR 12, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 7, WIS 18, CHA 14

Sundalar
Male Half-Elf
Neutral Good
Wizard
STR 6, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 8

I'm not very fond of having a retarded elf in my party

 

These games really need mindflayers.

 

There is Mind Flayers in the Underdark....

 

The game will be quite hard with your party, so don't hesitate to turn down the difficulty. There's also the option to add new characters during the game (a bard would help everyone to do more and take less damage for example).

If you start the wild elf as rogue you'll get more skillpoints total. At level up you can save 1 skillpoint for the next, you can use this to your advantage.

Inventory management can be very annoying with low strength. Strength is not a dump stat for powergamers like in BG2, there are no items which set it to a fixed value in IWD2.

12 and 13 int are exactly the same in the game and if you raise int from 13 to 14 later you'll have far less skillpoints than if you started with 14. I would also lower wis by 1 or 2, you'll never reach enough levels to cast level 4 spells anyway and being extremely beautiful won't make the game easier either.
Since plate weigths 50 and a greataxe 20 you'll have lot of fun with 90 lb carrying capacity, don't expect to do much damage with only 12 str either.

 

I've set 13 intelligence in order to be able to take Expertise feat, so I'm not planning to raise it. I'm going to raise paladin's strength though.

I still don't understand very well how the skill points system works. After lvl 1, any non-human will get only 1 point + INT modifier? Does class matter for number of skill points per level?

If a skill is untrained, does it mean it increases with levels without assigning skill points to it?

My INT 8 wild elf Sorcerer/Fighter/Rogue needs Hide, Move Silently and Concentration while the INT 18 Wizard will get Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft and Concentration. But I also need to have Disable Device, Open locks and Search covered by these two characters, so who has the best chance to get which?

 

When levelling up as rogue you get 4 skill points + int modifier (your wild elf gets 3), the other classes you chose get only 1+int modifier. The human gets an addtional skill point per level up.
At character creation you get quadruple skill points.

Skills don't improve with levels unless you spend points for them.
You can improve them by improving the stat modifier however, with 18 cha and no points spent you have 4 in all diplomatic skills for example. If you raise cha to 22 with eagle's splendor they improve to 6.

"Trained only" skills are non-existent until you spent at least one skill point for them, the untrained skills can be used even without skill points spent if the stat modifier is positive.
I'd give the int-based thieving skills to the wizard, 10 extra int are as useful as 5 skill points spent.
With 20 dex and no armor the wild elf will be quite good at stealth even without a single point spent, so you can afford to give the lockpick skills to him, but you can have the wizard handle this skill or cast knock if you want to spend the points for something else or don't like sharing the thieving skills.
Knowledge arcana only helps identifying stuff without identify spell, so it doesn't have to be very high.

 

Whatever you do follow that bit of advice, it's a real waste to start as a different class.

If I were you I'd make Zarim a Rogue/Bard instead (changing the race to half elf or a race with Rogue as favourite class). Due to the level cap in normal mode you could look up forward getting the best Bard song even if you took three Rogue levels.

IMO Sorcerer X / Rogue 3 is better than Sorcerer X / Ftr 4 / Rogue 3. Those 4 Fighter levels will really cripple your spellcasting. Wizard X / Rogue 2 or 3 is even better because high INT will allow your character to put points in Rogue skills without needing to take extra Rogue levels.

There is not much point in taking Rogue levels with a low INT character. You're losing skill points when the real asset of taking a few Rogue levels like this is putting as many points as possible in Rogue only skills.

So I'd suggest giving Sundalar the Rogue levels and making Zarim a Sorcerer X /Fighter 4 or something else like a Bard 11 /Fighter 4 or replace the 4 Fighter levels by only one Ranger level (free dual wielding is great with maxed out DEX and weapon finesse).

 

Carad, he'd probably be better off if it were the main arcane caster were a sorc, and the wizzy was multi-classed with the rogue levels. The synergy between rogue and wizzy is far, far, far better than between rogue and sorc, because like you point out, rogues need INT to get all those skill points to be useful ... and so do wizzies. Also, some of the rogue skills are INT-modified, like Search and Disable Device, so a Wizzy's high INT would further improve those skills.

A low INT rogue is sort of like a low INT wizzy ... what's the point?

 

Thanks for advices.

Yes, it seems more logical to have a Wizard/Rogue, but I wanted the multiclassed Sorcerer to be more a ranged fighter than a rogue. As I said, the rogue levels where mainly for evasion, I didn't had in mind the rogue skills. Also it makes sense role-playing wise since the Wild Elf also favors sorcerer class and he is using a bow. But I guess a Wizard/Rogue can become as good with a bow or crossbow, with the same number of Fighter levels added.

So my main caster will be a Wild Elf sorcerer and a have a Moon Elf as a Wiz/Ftr/Rogue.

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Another quick question, what use has charisma for Paladins except for turning undead?

I guess the cleric does it better anyway, so I can switch the cleric to be the diplomat of the party by having higher charisma than paladin, this way he will also get money from quests, but how much sense does it make from a role-playing perspective?

 

I agree with crucis, rogue mixes better with wizard than sorc. If you take standard instead of wild elf, swap cha with int and wizard (I recommend transmuter for more spells) with sorcerer you'll have a more powerful character.
With 18 int you don't have to worry about skillpoints, the sorcerer benefit of not having to find scrolls for spell learning doesn't apply when you level slowly while the wizard advantages (gain access to spells 1 caster level earlier and bonus feats) will make a difference.

 

You only need 2 Rogue levels for Evasion (but 3 to avoid XP penalties of course if you take 4 Fighter levels).

In that case skip the Rogue class and give your character just one Monk level. There is no zen archery in IWD2 but that would be an interesting character. The trouble is adding Fighter levels without XP penalty (but since you want a ranged character more than a spellcaster why not).

Iirc Lawful Evil Monk can take Sorcerer levels but that may not agree with your idea for that character and party.

IMO Sorcerer X / Monk 1 / Ranger 1 would be a nice spellcaster with some use as a combattant and evasion. That will only cost you two levels and the only thing you'll reallly miss compared to the Sorcerer X / Rogue 3 / Fighter 4 is weapon specialization. Of course adding 5 levels to your spellcasting class will make a HUGE difference as a spellcaster. Ranger is not even necessary if you don't want to dual wield since your character will already be proficient in bows. So you can save one more level.

It all comes down to a choice between 5 or 6 Sorcerer levels or Weapon Specialization, a few feats (none if you go for dual wielding), some bonus to hit and some hit points... Or you could see it as a choice between a relatively good spellcaster and a very mediocre spellcaster who does a little more damage with a bow.

 

Since I'm not planning to rest after every battle, my supporting spellcaster will spend more time shooting the bow than casting spells.