Thoughts on Flemeth (SPOILERS!!!)

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So... as the thread title says, what are your opinions on Flemeth? Her motives have been bothering me ever since I first met her, and personally I really don't know how to deal with her.

She's very powerful, powerful enough to survive even a "forced death" as Morrigan put it. I've "killed" her on all of my games for different reasons, knowing full well that she would return at a later point and that as far as she's concerned, her "death" was just a minor discomfort, a small price to pay for the sport of fighting the grey warden.

She may not be evil in the classic sense (she doesn't go around killing innocents, etc.) but it is obvious that she is self-serving and is obsessed with power. I will not be surprised if she staged everything that has happened up to the point where the warden "kills" her both as a convenient means of ending the Blight (which threatened her too) and as means to convince Morrigan that she (Morrigan) and the warden must have the "old god" child.
The child will probably be girl... and given what Flemeth does to sustain her youth and power, you can imagine what will happen next.

All of my characters also happen to be power-obsessed (to different degrees) so I'm honestly not sure what to think of her. As far as I'm concerned she resembles my characters far too much, and rather than a power-hungry maleficar who no longer cares about good or evil in her pursuit of power (and what she plans to do with that power, I have no idea. Revenge on the world, probably) I just see a disaster waiting to happen. And the thing is I personally feel powerless to do anything about it until it does happen, as trying to foil her plans contradicts with everything that my characters believe in. Up until the point where she would actually try to possess my character's child (or if in case none of this happens, up until the point where any of her activities would affect my character personally), I probably won't feel at all inclined to stop her.

Or I guess presume about her too much or what will happen later on in the series. What do you guys think of her?

 

After playing all the way though, I had a strong feeling that Morrigan's disappearance is the perfect setup for an entirely new DA...not just an expansion. Dragon Age: 'Reign of the Old God' anyone?

 

I didn't kill her on my first playthrough. I usually just decide not to get involved in it. Probably because the sole source of information is Morrigan and Flemeth? Neither are to be trusted on words alone.
I am sure some other char will make a different choice.

Even though it was all just a part of some scheme or another, Flemeth did save the life of the main character. It puts a certain limitation on what most my characters find appropriate as a response. Her life for theirs, this once.

Morrigan's ritual idea actually strikes me like the work of Morrigan alone - although it's possible that Flemeth had raised Morrigan in such a fashion as to reach that conclusion and act on it, the actual deed always struck me as something that Morrigan wanted - a way for her to gain power. She is a power believer as well. Maybe it's in the blood.
None of my chars accepted her ritual offer (too obvious a threat) so the matter of the child is rather non-existing for me.

Still, I am actually sort of fond of Flemeth as a char (her being a horrible mother aside).

Yes, she is certainly powerful enough to cause some serious mayhem, but so far, she isn't doing anything. She grieves and plots in the marshes. Most my chars are comfortable leaving her to it - unless she asks for a confrontation.

As the saying goes: "The devils you are safest with are those that you know best."

Flemeth is such an entity. A "familiar" evil - or, at least a reasonable one. It seems to me that a demise of the world - or a demise in which she played no part at least, isn't what she wants.
(I must say that I don't think she is after a full-scale revenge of ashes at all. Guess I think that she is just living her own life, with a few plans for her own amusement. If she prefers the world to see her as dormant - that's a good thing for the world.)

Don't get me wrong - Flemeth is a dangerous entity - but she is an entity my chars will greet and confront respectfully, when their plans directly clash with the world. Not before. Amicable enemies are hard to find these days as it is.

 

That's an interesting viewpoint. I guess I just take it for granted that she's very powerful - powerful enough to come back from the dead, which is why I always kill her. Now that I think about it I may have done more harm than good for myself in doing so, since I'm also revealing my skills/thoughts to her.
I just might consider leaving her alone next time, both as a respectful one-time gesture and to keep her guessing about my character's intentions.

Weird that we have the similar stances regarding her (you respect her power so you don't kill her; I respect her power which is why I do, knowing full well she'll return) , and ultimately our characters are just waiting for her to act first - for wildly different reasons.

 

I don't think Flemeth is evil. She is part of the remnants of a much older tradition, one that is plagued and eradicated by the Chantry and the Templars. As such she is both ancient and powerful. She is indeed dangerous but that doesn't make her evil.

I think that the story leads us to believe that Flemeth has planned everything (including the main character's possible attempt to kill her). Morrigan joins up because Flemeth tells her. The Grimoire and Flemeth's Ritual tend to make her look evil because she probably wants to use Morrigan's body to increase her lifespan. Would Morrigan act differently if she was in the same situation? I doubt it. Isn't Morrigan's ritual part of Flemeth's plan? Probably. Will Morrigan's child give her some leverage in dealing with Flemeth? We can assume that as well.

The only time I killed Flemeth was when my character was romancing Morrigan and couldn't bear the very idea of Flemeth's ritual and obviously trusted Morrigan (probably too much). Even then it was a hard decision to make. In my other games other my characters really didn't care that much about Morrigan, didn't want to take chances for Morrigan's sake or couldn't forget that Flemeth had actually saved the two remaining Grey Wardens in Ferelden and thus probably saved Ferelden as a whole. If the main character and Alistair had died at Ostagar they wouldn't have had a chance to stop the Blight and face the Archdemon.

Killing Flemeth because she's not telling you everything or because Morrigan tells you to kill her (who actually believes that Morrigan tells you everything either?) seems like the "wrong" decision to me.

 

If one thinks about it that way, then yes.

I think she is evil, though not in a kill-everything-in-sight kind of way. She's evil because if she gains enough power to do what she wants, then she would doubtless go about her plans without regard for anyone else. That of all people she decided to save the warden/Alistair instead indicates that she does want to help end the blight, but for her own reasons. She's like the polar opposite of Loghain - Loghain just wanted what was best for Ferelden. Flemeth wants what's best for herself. Loghain didn't want to do everything he did, he simply thought he didn't have a choice if he wanted to save the kingdom. Likewise, Flemeth had no objections to saving the warden and doing a few good deeds because it got her closer to accomplishing her goals. Loghain will risk his life (he will even agree to die) if he knew it would do some good for Ferelden. Flemeth, on the other hand, risked her own life for her goals, which remain obscure.
Note that I'm not using "evil" here as a way to differentiate a hero from a villain, but only as a way to gauge "selfishness without a regard for others".

I would definitely trust Morrigan more than Flemeth, since Morrigan would at least have her reasons for not trying to kill you, even if she thought it would benefit her. The regret she feels in her endings for leaving the warden is proof of this. Anyway like I said I just took it for granted that Flemeth would come back from the dead later on and that killing her would at least offer Morrigan temporary respite. She'll probably come back to life more than a little cranky, and hopefully my character has grown more powerful by then.

Anyway I'm going to try and leave her alone in my next few runs, see that how would be like.

 

I find most of the morale decisions are in shades of grey and not clearly black and white. I find Flemeth and Morrigan to also be shaded gray as you do not know their true intention and how it impacts the world, either good or bad.

An example of of gray areas in the game, I imagine the game developers hope that if you play the dwarf commoner you side with Prince Behlen for your sister sake and if you play the dwarf noble you side with Lord Harromont because of the betrayal by Prince Behlen.

The game morale decision reminds me more of real world decisions and how they impact the future compared to normal CRPG where the decision is either good or evil.

 

That's what I like about some of these choices.

Killing Flemeth because you don't know what she is up to or because you surmise that she is more neutral than good (which is probably true) doesn't seem right to me.

There is something definitive about death which makes it quite unpalatable for my "good" characters.

 

But she can't die. That's the clincher right there.

BTW, does Morrigan's ritual happen if the PC is female?

 

There are some good points that are being brought up here.

Morrigan supports some things that strike me as evil (cutting a deal with the slavers that makes your character stronger at the expense of the elves' lives).

But did Flemeth teach her to be this way and actually hold similar feelings herself?

If Morrigan is correct about what Flemeth does that would mean that Flemeth is a threat to more than just Morrigan but any daughter, granddaughter, and so on that Flemeth has. Also is it true that she kills off any male children/possible members of the family?

If what Flemeth is hinted at doing is actually true the perhaps taking her out is the right thing to do regardless of the threat to Morrigan individually.

If so Flemeth does some pretty helpful things (saving you) as well as some horrid ones.

A serial killer can join the fire department and help save lives. But should still be brought down/stopped because that same individual kills others when nobody notices. Is Flemeth the same as this?




Scythesong Immortal

Yes the ritual can be done by the other Gray Warden in your party (who you notice happens to be male).

 

Didn't mean it like that.

I hope Flemeth has a role in the expansion, at least.

 

Are you sure about that or do you just take Morrigan's word for it?

In other words, does the fact that you assume that she can't die make it ok to kill her?

Morrigan is self centred because she's been taught by Flemeth that people are selfish and that she is not to expect any kindness from strangers (or anyone else for that matter).

The serial killer point may be apt but what do we know about Flemeth? She killed Templars who were foolish enough to chase her that's self defense? We don't know for sure that she killed her daughters although the existence of the Robes of Possession seem to hint at some truth.

Now what if the other daughters tried to kill Flemeth too? I mean what is the logical outcome for any of Flemeth's daughters if not to try and take Flemeth's place and possibly given time become very much like Flemeth?

 

That's not the only evidence that suggests that she's far more powerful than we think. The fact that she has magic to hide/protect herself from the horde, that she can even turn herself into a high dragon, that she can comfortably survive in conditions that would kill anything else, that she has survived all these centuries (very unlikely she didn't "die" at least once) all point to the fact that if she does decide to take the Warden seriously, he would be quite dead.

If Flemeth ever thought that she was indeed in a dire situation, I am confident she would have simply just flown away or shapeshifted into something discrete. She didn't, that suggests she was being a good sport, and will probably take the Warden more seriously next time.

I don't think Flemeth can be compared to a serial killer, possibly a person who wants something like powerful, dangerous technology and is only using you as a means to an end. What she plans to do with it, no idea.

 

I believe Flemeth to be the original Flemeth. I also believe she has had many daughters. And she is aging because the demon/dragon within her is dying. She is letting her daughter go because she knows her daughter will seek out power similar to Flemeth or will want learn what Flemeth knows.

I don't think Flemeth will posses Morrigan; in fact I believe the possesion part is where the soul of the dragon is drawn into Morrigan after a GW sleeps with her before the final battle. If you do not sleep with her than maybe Flemeth (if not killed) would posses Morrigan.

If anything, Flemeth is trying to protect her kin; the dragons / the old gods.

The game is called Dragon Age and I have a feeling the Awakening will give us more insight into Dragon Age 2 or the next expansion.

 

That is an interesting theory. Flemeth did say that men died for her once, perhaps she was referring to the time when that old god/dragon part of her was worshiped in ancient Tevinter.
It would be an interesting twist indeed if the "demon"/spirit bound within Flemeth was actually one of the original dragon gods.

 

Hey guys, here's a link to a nice comic collaboration by an artist named "Aimo" and David Gaider. It's from a sequence that was supposed to be in the game but was cut due to financial/resource constraints. It really gives you a better insight on Morrigan's personality, consistent with the Morrigan who envied the PC who never knew his/her mother and the Morrigan who has talks to Leliana about it.
I think it proves a little how vengeful Flemeth actually is, that she would so force on her daughter her own ideals.

And here's a random funny vid that just might change your opinions on Brother Geniviti forever.

 

I'm glad they cut out this scene actually. More of Alistair's whining and crying? no thanks. As for Morrigan, it was far more interesting to have her be blunt and matter-of-factly about the "offer" she is making, then when confronting her seeing her composure almost (but not quite) crumble when she admits things didn't quite go the way she planned. It was subtle, but more in character than seeing her actually cry. That conversation with her was probably one of my favourite bits of characterisation in the game actually.

 

The comic doesn't do Alistair much justice, yes. And I agree that the Morrigan actually crying bit was taking things too far, but it does prove that as a person she's not as convoluted as Flemeth.
One can only wonder what Flemeth's ultimate goals are.

 

Besides such a cutscene would have made for an omniscient main character or a character who would spy on party members. Keeping a certain ambiguity was a good choice. The ring that Morrigan gives the Grey Warden is proof enough that she does care.

 

With DA2 now on the horizon I wonder if Morrigan and Flemeth will be part of DA2. I wonder if in DA2 you play the child of Morrigan. Hmm...that would definitely make for an interesting game, especially if you are able to transform into a dragon.