Archery build: Rogue or Warrior?

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First, let's forget about crossbows (low damage) and focus on bows bearing in mind that both Dexterity and Strength are needed (except for short bows on the PC). Lethality substitutes Cunning to Strength for Rogues.

Warrior build:

More health and stamina than a Rogue which is good, more damage is even better.

Useful core talents:

Less fatigue and more health.

The bonus to critical hits is good, but it is doubtful that the character will be surrounded by enemies very often (still a possibility).

Very good point for the Warrior build.

Not so interesting for an archer.

Bonus to attack might be useful but it's rather costly when you consider the investment in that line.

-specializations

Berserker (Oghren) +2 strength, +10 health

Resilience and Constraint bonuses of course.

Final Blow doesn't work with ranged attacks.

It seems a very dubious choice for a ranged warrior.

Champion +2 willpower, +1 cunning

Probably a better choice can be useful when surrounded and to buff allies. Doesn't make a better archer though.

Reaver +1 constitution, +5 physical resistance

Strength dependent + health. Works better for a build that is more Strength dependent (two handed weapons).

Templar (Alistair) +2 magic, +3 mental resistance

Very useful at least indirectly.

Passive bonus, always good.

Good ability. It doesn't improve on Archery directly but it is useful.

Rogue Build:

Less health and less stamina than a Warrior and more importantly less damage per level.

Useful when attacked in close quarters.

Melee dependent.

Melee.

Melee only.

A must have for a Rogue Archer allows to focus on Cunning. Strength may be needed to equip some items though but it seriously reduces the number of points to be invested in Strength.

Quite good and since Dexterity will be high anyway it shouldn't be a problem to take this talent.

Probably one of the most useful Rogue talents. Allows to avoid enemies and it also grants an automatic critical hit when in stealth. Perfect.


-specializations

Assassin (Zevran) +2 dexterity, +2.5 percent critical chance

Good talent. Requires to be rather close to an enemy though.

Since you can't backstab with a bow these are useless for an archer build.

Bard (Leliana) +2 willpower, +1 cunning

Requires a very high Cunning score to be really good.

Minor crowd control.

Apart from the Cunning, the major drawback is the stamina drain.

Duelist +2 dexterity, +1 damage per hit

The bonus applies to ranged attacks.

Melee only.

May not be that interesting since you need to waste a point on Upset Balance to get it but it makes Dueling mode better.

This is a good talent but switching weapons may be a hassle. Besides the cooldown may make it less interesting in the long run.

Ranger +1 constitution, +5 nature resistance

I don't see the point for an archer build. At least the other specializations bring some useful bonuses for an archer.

Conclusion:

The Warrior build has more health, stamina and damage. It also regains stamina thanks to Death Blow. It can equip heavier armours (Master Archer negates the penalty for heavy armours except massive chest armours).

The Rogue build has Stealth (great), Evasion, specializations (Assassin and Duelist) that give +4 dexterity, +2.5 percent critical chance and +1 damage per hit which may balance a bit the damage difference per level.

Opinions?

EDIT: Deadly Strike and Final Blow only work with melee weapons.

 

Very nice analysis and you note things I wouldn't have thought about. I generally was thinking warrior-melee and rogue-ranged or melee.

I have to say, if true the game is rather questionable with crossbows. It seems to suffer from the same screwup that D&D made with them-making them too weak. Crossbows, at their time were a bit like the sniper's weapon. They hit from afar, slowly reloaded (if anything games don't make you take long enough to reload one), and hit hard (they could pierce armor when your shortbow of the day couldn't).

 

I think, for me, the only reasons why I'd go rogue over warrior is one - I'm stuck on rogues. I just love them to bits. Two - the biggest thing that annoyed me when playing a class other than rogue was having to swap back and forth between my PC and a rogue party member when it came to unlocking chests or other locked items, and disarming traps. I might have to try an archer build on a warrior - might make it more fun to play for me if I do it for a 2nd go 'round.

Good info though, Cara!

 

Hmm... I think I'll go with Warrior, though objectively rogues probably make a better choice (all the Dext bonuses, Stealth and talents focused on staying alive).

My first char in DA:O was a warrior archer (Dalish, specialisations Templar, Champion) and I was quite happy how she played. Dealt a lot of damage, quickly (especially on higher levels, or with Arrow of Slaying) and could hold her ground in a fight if necessary, with decent health, though there was no real focus on buffing up her health, just Dex.
Damage alone was quite worth it, imo.

Death Blow is useful, true.

Scattershot provides good crowd control and lasts enough to pull out of melee, so it can, IMO, compensate quite nicely for not using other talents for a similar effect and evens the playing field for frailer characters gone archers.

 

There is a mod that allows Leliana and Zevran to unlock chests or doors without selecting them (Party Unlock Command) it doesn't work with Awakening though.

I'm still undecided though. Lore makes some good points about abilities.

I wonder if Awakening high level abilities and talents don't make the Warrior build more interesting though (second wind for instance).

 

I would like to point out that even though the ranger does not make an archer more effective with damage the animal companion does one thing that could help an archer and that is keep enemies away from the archer. Also, the damage the extra companion you have will make battles a bit easier. You may discredit it as a bad specialization but in fact it is a perfect specialization for a archer type character.

 

Truth be told, the Ranger specialization is not my style but I can't see how getting a summon (and spending 4 talent points to get a decent summon) is that good when it prevents your character from taking a much more useful specialization for an archer. If anything the Dexterity bonus and the damage or critical bonus are worth taking the Assassin or Duelist even if you don't invest one point in the specialization tree. In order to keep enemies away, Bard is a much better choice IMO.

 

Not if you solo the game. Than it worth having the animals companions.

 

Alright, for a solo then the ranger becomes much more interesting. Still, as far as I'm concerned, if you rely on summons while soloing you may as well have some henchmen. But then again I'm really not into summons, I've tried the necromancy line in DAO and I wasn't thrilled either.

I don't know if I'll ever solo DAO (as NPCS constitue a huge part of the interest of the game IMO) but if I did I'd probably go for stealth, bombs, traps and poisons. I can see the usefulness of animal companions in certain boss fights but other than that they'd probably cramp my style. However, I do admit that I don't like the Ranger specialization (took it once with Zevran, used the animal once and then decided to just forget about it).

Back on the topic of warrior vs rogue, I'd say that it's really difficult to pick one over the other. Both have advantages although stamina is clearly in favour of warriors (and rogues specialized in archery can't benefit from all the backstab goodness in Awakening).

I'm not sure 100% but I'm thinking that warrior may be the way to go if only for stamina (in Origins at least). Being unable to use an ability because the satmina bar is depleted is annoying.

By the way, pplr is definitely right about crossbows. Contrary to longbows they didn't require much practice to be deadly. The rate of fire was very slow (a few bolts per minute at least for crossbows used in Europe in the Middle Ages) but they could kill a knight in full plate armour (Richard the Lionheart died from a wound inflicted by a crossbow). It was not an honourable weapon and for a long time its use was forbidden in fights between Christians in medieval Europe.

So yes, the game totally fails as far as crossbows are concerned. The only time when a crossbow can be useful is at the very beginning when the character still has very bad stats and even then it's pretty even between bows and crossbows.

 

Just did a solo archer rogue myself, and must say I did not find the animal companion to be all that. Hardly ever used it seeing as nothing could hit me anyway, being a max dex build. In fact the only time I really found it worthwhile was when fighting Ogres as it was easier to keep my distance and avoid chain rams and the likes.

To be honest I don't know which of the two I'd take. I might be inclined to go rogue simply for the Bard specialization, which is pretty awesome with an Origins cunning build.

 

Bard is definitely worth it without Leliana.

I've been browsing the Dragon Age Wiki and I've found an interesting page, Archery: An Efficient Approach.

It is very Rogue oriented (completely ignores the stamina issue that makes a Warrior build an attractive alternative with Death Blow) but makes an interesting point crunching numbers in relation to Arrow of Slaying.

Stealth is probably the thing that works best for a Rogue Archer in relation to Arrow of Slaying.

There is also an interesting point about Evasion which according to this page breaks attack animations (that is actually an argument in favour of the Warrior build).

 

I'd definitely prefer the warrior. Take champion and templar for the knockbacks, attack bonus to party and mental resistance. Archer suddenly becomes a viable tank, high dex, good resistences, knockbacks, aoe cleanse, heavier armor and a talent that makes all those skills viable in a single encounter when you need them (regening stamina really only applies when there's many enemies) and things like knockbacks are useful.

If you like the route of strict damage more, then rogue, sneak around easily enough in lighter armors, which in all likelihood have more dex bonuses than heavy armors, stealth when you're in trouble, come out and focus more on using archery talents by themselves.

 

Superiority can be a valuable asset, that is very true Omnigodly.

The real problem with a Rogue Archer is that bow attacks are not backstabs: Exploit Weakness, Lacerate and Feast of the Fallen which are great for any backstabber are all useless for an archer.

 

I'd say that the very high armor penetration a rogue archer can get with high cunning and lethality is a major plus for the rogue archer. I'd go rogue archer or warrior archer any day of the week, personally.

I'm very much enjoying my rogue archer, with ranger (and soon to have) bard specializations. The archer really doesn't need to use a lot of talents, as they are slow as to be counter-productive in most cases. So adding a ranger pet, bard song, and of course aim, and you're pretty much set. If an enemy gets up close and personal you've got dirty fighting and below the belt.

 

I actually use Precise Strike + Rapid Shot for bows early game. +10 attack is significant. I'm curious if anyone else does this, or can compare Aim vs this setup in early game. One of the guard NPCs who accompanies you into the tower of Ishal has both these skills. I've never made a warrior.

I switch to Aim at mid levels, since you can't have both Rapid Shot and Aim on.

The Spirit Warrior archer is basically a mage on steroids, in Awakenings. It can out- burst damage a mage, but DPS-wise mages still have the upper hand. Somewhat.

 

The issue I have with rapid shot is that it prevents critical hits. I played with rapid shot very early. As soon as I started using aim instead my damage output increased dramatically. I would suggest switching to aim as soon as you get access to it.

 

Definitely, Aim is probably the best Archery Talent (pre-Awakening of course). Others have their uses but I concur about Rapid Shot not scoring critical hits (unless your character is using Stealth or Pinpoint strike or if a Death hex affects the target in which case the shot will still be a critical hit).

I'm still undecided. It probably boils down to playing style.

The Warrior is probably more resistant and more reliable throughout the entire game, only needs Dexterity and Strength (mostly) and should work nicely in Awakening.

The Rogue, however, really needs Lethality and therefore has a more difficult time earlier on but can abuse Stealth to get automatic critical hits and time Arrow of Slaying. Ability scores will probably be spread between Dexterity and Cunning (which increases armour penetration -not really an issue in my experience but it's a point in favour of the Rogue build) but heavy armours will be out of the picture.

The Warrior will probably have a little more damage but Stealth will force Critical Hits for the Rogue and even this out.

Stamina may be an issue as a Rogue Archer can't rely on Feast of the Fallen.

In Awakening, the Warrior Archer will only be able to take advantage of Second Wind and Grievous Insult as other talents only work in melee whereas a Rogue Archer in Awakening will only be able to use Ghost and Weak Points.

So things are pretty even: no Massacre, no Flicker. One may say that Weak Points tips the scale in favour of Rogues but I'm not so sure as Second Wind allows to spam Archery Talents rather freely.

 

I toyed around a bit with a re-specialised fighter and bow specialisation in the deep roads.

It's nice but not that great. It's awesome for arrow of slaying and the instantaneous killing of low level opponents - it doesn't work on some yellows and certainly not on orange enemies.

What you will kill is lower level enemies, but also not at a rate as to have death blow make arrow of slaying a particularly frequent mode of attack - I was only able to use it (to good effect) for initial attacks. From a utility standpoint an archer fighter is nice conceptually, but for my playing style impractical (I need a rogue i.e. Leliana and a mage i.e. Morrigan - leaves one damage sponge and main char as major damage dealer). I need a more balanced main char. I feel that archery is best invested in support characters. The main char is the most powerful character and in my experience melee is often inevitable in Dragon Age.

On the other hand, to have two chars with arrow of slaying would be a safe and effective way to prevent enemy mages from having a say in the coming fight ...

EDIT: Now aim on the other hand is interesting indeed ... I guess I'll play around with that a bit before I decide Thanks for the heads up.

 

Well, Ragusa, more feedback is always greatly appreciated. I believe the game is easy enough so that a main character who would be an Archer could work quite nicely. Party composition is another thing altogether as players tend to adopt different party members and build them differently.

I must say that I don't know yet which one I'd prefer. I tend to play Rogues more because I like them a lot and it's nice to have a game where Rogues are more than traps disabler. That being said the Warrior Archer has some nice assets. It's rather difficult to choose between them.

By the way regarding Arrow of Slaying, the link I've posted above details the difference in levels and the modifiers to damage that apply. According to that page, the target has to be of a much lower level (at least 4) or roughly the same level (not more than one level lower) for it to be really effective. I must say this makes sense as after playing a while with Arrow of Slaying I've noticed some great variations in damage output.

Of course all this only makes Aim a much better choice for a ranged character.

I may have to ditch my current game to start over with an Archer -or several Archers and see how they compare.

 

With regards to Aim, prior to getting this ability with my Dalish rogue archer I was seriously like, WTF, what's so good about archery?? I was using rapid shot, and occasionally would use talents like pinning shot and shattering shot. Those talents didn’t seem great since I could otherwise get off like 3 shots in the time it took to fire one with them.

Damage in general was low, due to scoring 0 critical hits. Then I decided to give aim a try (which I had trained an entire level earlier but neglected to use). Immediately I started doing good damage (due to the base damage going up of course, but mainly due to crits), hitting more regularly, and started getting the majority of kills in my party. Leliana respec’d as a dual dagger wielder with high cunning still gave my archer a run for her money in terms of kills and damage, but my archer is now a key damage dealer and doesn’t even have to use talents. Her ranger pet only improves matters, and when I get bard song (Leliana is respec’d as an assassin) it’s really going to be on…!