Human Noble Origin – Something just doesn’t add up….

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If you played the human noble origin you know that your are from the Cousland family from Highever. Duncan is visiting because he may recruit Sir Gilmore but he is very interested in the PC.

After completing the human origin you start Ostagar. If you talk to Sir Jory you learn a little about him and how he got recruited.

Here is my first issue; He is a knight from Red Cliffe who has a wife in Highever. But he doesn’t know the PC who is from the most noble family in Highever.

Second, he was recruited by Duncan after winning a tournament in Highever that occurred about a month ago.

A few things bug me about this, first Sir Jory should know who the PC without any introduction. Second, the PC should know who Duncan and Sir Jory are from the start since there was a tournament about a month prior which Sir Jory won. Third, I believe the human noble origin was thrown together at the last minute and they forgot to modify the rest of the story at Ostagar after creating the human noble origin.

 

Agreed on the first point. I think I'll have to create a human noble to check out the 2nd part, because in my memory, I thought the tourney was held at Redcliffe, where Ser Jory serves Arl Eamon. I could be wrong, but luckily I have a human noble (just remembered her) that I had just gotten to Ostagar before I saved the game and went to bed last night. She hasn't crossed the bridge yet so I know she's still safe for that convo.

 

I agree with CD, the tournament was in Redciffe iirc.

The Human Noble Origin could have been better in many ways. The Ser Jory thing is not the most glaring flaw.

Spoiler

Do you remember getting a key from Teyrna Cousland to open the locked room only to find two slain guards in there (the ones who were playing cards). Isn't it funny that they died in a locked room where noone could have attacked them?

 

On the first point: There is no real reason for Ser Jory to have personally met the PC, even if he has heard that the Cousland has a son/daughter of that name. There is nothing indicating that the Human Noble PC was someone worth remembering prior to getting recruited.

Besides, if Ser Jory had been in Arl Eamon's service, he would have spent most his time in Redcliffe, not in Highever and when he did go there, I'm sure he had more important things on his mind then some nobleman's (spoiled) second child.
Not to mention that being born into the Cousland family as a second child really shouldn't be all that impressive by definition for someone who has sworn loyalty to the Arl of Redcliffe.

Cara: Don't remind me That was really disappointing.

Spoiler

Especially since you can go and yell at them earlier to stay alert and watch over the vault.

 

Good points Lore. Although I'd like to point out that according to the little chat you can have with Dairren, it would seem that your character can be rather impressive (to have a certain reputation as a Warrior -at least for a Male character).

Furthermore, Ser Jory is not very knowledgeable (he didn't strike me as an intelligent fellow). He is genuinely impressed when the Warden reveals his or her ancestry. It seems he is proud to be in the company of a nobleman.

Ser Jory is not a noble, he is a random knight who probably just got lucky (or not since it lead him to be recruited by Duncan).

 

That's true.

I just don't have much of an opinion of my own Human Noble chars before Ostragar battle myself.

 

Thanks for checking on that Cara - I thought the tourney was in Redcliffe and now this saves me from having to pay attention to the conversation instead of just zipping on through it (my escape key gets a lot of use nowadays ). I know, I know, I could just not talk to him or Daveth to begin with - but Daveth can be kind of fun when you're a female and you tell him not to get too distracted back there, or call him a charmer, after saying you'll watch his back if he watches yours.

Agreed on the Cousland thing...

Spoiler

And yet again, I point out, who was mad at whom with the sword placement on the target dummy in the locked vault? I had a good case of the giggles, and I felt that straw dummy's pain the first time I saw that!!

Also, even though it's the beginning sequence for your PC, you would think that the Teryn's shield and sword would be of a higher tier value that you find in the vault. I'm sure, after having commanded armies as long as he has (from the liberation of Ferelden of Orlais to just keeping his men at Highever trained and battle ready in case a need pops up), his items would be much more powerful, especially if they're stored in the vault.

 

Nope. The tournment was in Highever, not Red Cliffe. I just listen to the dialogue again.

As for your PC; Duncan is there for you and not Sir Gilmore.

As for the tier I agree but without all the DLC content you needs to complain about a sword and shield lack of proper tier given their history.

 

Duncan is there for both. He wouldn't invoke the Right of Conscription without Arl Howe's attack (he even says so). In that case Ser Gilmore is a valid alternative (even if it's definitely the second choice).

Besides, even considering that the tournament took place in Highever (and my memory was a bit hazy on that point) it doesnt' mean that Ser Jory would have known Bryce Cousland's second son (or daughter). It's very unlikely as Ser Jory would have been among the rabble.

Don't let the use of the word "Ser" mislead you. A Fereldan knight may be above the mob but he or she is definitely far below a Teyrn's offspring. According to the Wiki there are only two Teyrns in Ferelden, Gwarren and Highever (Teyrns are in all logic only one notch below the King).

So, it could be argued that for the Human Noble to notice Ser Jory would have required the latter to demonstrate a real feat of arms and not a simple victory in the tournament (even if it was enough to make an impression on Duncan). That's a little farfetched but it's still rather plausible. Why would the Teyrn's second son care about an uncouth oaf like Ser Jory?

Or maybe, Teyrn Cousland's second son neither took part in nor witnessed the tournament a month before because he was too busy getting drunk with Lady Landra and his mother at Bann Loren's estate.

 

We can argue this to we are blue in the face but here is what I don't get.

1) Duncan is respected and when you are introduced to him Howle makes a comment about not being properly prepared with a GW present.

2) Ser Jory won a tournment and was recruited as a GW

They don't state that Duncan was at the tournment but my guess is he would have been there an if that was the case I figured the Couslands would also be there since Duncan, leader of the GW was there.

But than again these are my assumptions. I don't remember if Ser Jory states if Duncan recruited him or not. If not, than my assumption can be trashed and Ser Jory won a tournment and was recruited by the GW for winning.

As for being the second child; it is apparent that you are highly skilled. Your brother, father, and mother all admit to your skill. Duncan is there for you; you are left in charge of the castle. My guess is that you could be the chosen one to take your father spot ahead of your brother. It does happen; especially if the eldest child is not ready to take their parent's spot as a leader.

 

Supportive family?

...and Ser Gilmore.

They were running out of children.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Ignore me. )

 

The fact that Duncan is respected doesn't mean that Grey Wardens recruits like Ser Jory would be treated like royalty (and allowed to mixed with the likes of the Couslands). Besides Howe's comment shouldn't be taken at face value. He was just being ironic and acting his part as a courtier (especially since he probably knew about Loghain's plan to kill off the Grey Wardens at Ostagar).

It was King Maric who allowed Grey Wardens back into Ferelden after all (before that they were outlaws) so despite being heroes of folk legends and tales throughout Ferelden, Grey Wardens are not necessarily trusted by everyone. Cailan and Eamon seem to be exceptions among the nobility as far as dealing with Grey Wardens is concerned.

I don't see why the Couslands would have to be present just because Duncan was present at a tournament in Highever. We don't have enough information. Perhaps this tournament wasn't such a big thing or it wasn't deemed that important for nobles like the Couslands. Do you really think that Eleanor Cousland would be impressed by a blubbering knight like Ser Jory?

Furthermore if Duncan and the Couslands were at the tournament then it would be preposterous for Bryce to introduce his son/daughter to the Grey Warden. Before assuming that developers are idiots we may give them some credit and assume that the very start of the Human Noble Origin shows the very first meeting between the Teyrn's second child and Duncan.

Another thing I'd like to point out, Duncan must have heard about Bryce's second child's prowess (and Ser Gilmore's ) or the Grey Warden would never have thought about recruiting him or her. So the Human Noble is clearly known for being skilled (but that doesn't mean actually being skilled).

Being left in charge of the castle is not a good thing by the way. It's a menial task and given how talented the Teyrna is, it is utterly unnecessary. Bryce Cousland may have wanted to keep his second heir out of harm's way but it's not an honourable option for a warrior (and we're made to feel it so while playing the Origin as the character has the opportunity to complain and remonstrate). It may give some validity to the claim that the Teyrn is choosing his second child as his heir but there is no evidence that further substantiates this claim. I don't know where you got the idea that it could happen though. Since Ferelden is based on medieval Europe, it is highly unlikely.

According to the principle of Primogeniture (a tradition that prevented the division of fiefdoms and estates) this is not something that would have been condoned in medieval times. Unless the first born died (which wasn't unlikely in those troubled times), younger siblings had to seek their fortunes as professional men at arms or members of the clergy (sometimes both). Another thing about this principle is that it stressed the superiority of male heirs in the line. Even in England, males were preferred. It was the case with Henry VIII's offspring: Edward VI inherited the crown before it passed on to Mary I and then Elizabeth I.

As far as Fergus is concerned, there is nothing that indicates that he wouldn't be suited to inherit the Teyrn's domain. He isn't a profligate man, he is married and already has an heir and he is well respected as a commander and a warrior. Besides, we don't know much about Oriana (his wife) except that she is of Antivan origins and contrary to the Teyrna she is not well versed in the arts of war. The fact that Fergus is married and already has an heir is clearly a sign of stability. For Bryce Cousland to discard Fergus in favour of his youngest child would be to invite strife and conflict within his household.

 

I never said the progammer made a mistake.

As for Fergus; you make excellent points and he does take his father spot at the end of the game.

As for Nobility respecting the GW; Bryce Cousland also seems to repect them and is part of the minority along with Calin and Emmaon.

As for Ser Jory and the PC; we can state this...
1) Ser Jory won a tournament that occurred in Highever - who knows where in Highever and who attended.
2) The youngest child of Bryce Cousland is skilled enough to be considered a recruit for the GW but is not selected because their are other possible recruits within the Cousland estate walls
3) The youngest child of Bryce Cousland is and will not be the future heir as long as Fergus remains alive

There is not enough information to answer my question about why Ser Jory does not know who the PC or why the PC does not know Ser Jory.

Also, I am curious why the PC has not heard of Duncan, who was a Highever resident but ends up the GW leader. But that is for another time as Alister points out; he doens't know if Highever is where Duncan was originally from as it is his guess or what he could gather from his time as a GW.

 

If something doesn't add up then either developers made a mistake or we missed something.

Probably because Pup (I'll call the Human Noble Grey Warden Pup from now on) doesn't hang around simple knights who aren't in the service of his family. Ser Jory is a knight of Redcliffe even if his wife is from Highever and he only won a tournament there.

Moreover, if a tournament is a common occurence then there is no reason why Ser Jory would be famous in Highever. Tournaments could happen all the time and thus at best Pup would have heard (or not) about a knight from Redcliffe winning the tournament without knowing that particular knight. Hence it would have been impossible to recognize him. Besides, if you fight in a tournament you wear a full plate and a helmet (no jousting without helmets). Winning doesn't mean that you don't need some bandages and stuff (read Ivanhoe for good descriptions of a tournament). If we take all this into account it's highly unlikely that Ser Jory would have been socializing or at least socializing with Pup.

Regarding this point I can't remember if Bann Teagan knows Pup or if he doesn't. Both being nobles it would make sense for them to know each other but if they don't then it seems even more unlikely that Pup would have known a simple knight like Ser Jory.

I don't know much about Duncan but I remember reading that his mother was from Rivain and his father from Ferelden and that he grew up in Orlais and the Free Marches. It seems that Duncan didn't spend much time in one place so even if Highever was his designated home it is not impossible that he didn't spend much time there. If Pup is in his/her early 20s it is possible that the last time Duncan visited the Teyrn Pup had been a mere child and wouldn't have encountered the Grey Warden.

Bryce and Eleanor Cousland would have probably wanted to shield Pup from Duncan's influence (what parents would want their child to join the Grey Wardens?) so it's not impossible that Pup wasn't encouraged to get to know Duncan (at one point Bryce seems concerned that Duncan would invoke the Right of Conscription).

Last but not least, being a noble's second son also means that Pup is not free to hang around with just anyone. It could be dangerous and many unscrupulous characters could be eager to take advantage of a young noble (think about Shakespeare's Falstaff and Prince Hal in Henry IV). Not every knight is as honourable or as trustworthy as Ser Gilmore.

 

My take on some of this is slightly different, mainly because my Cousland has always been a female (go figure ).

No matter what, whether male or female, I believe the main reason that "Pup" is made to watch over the homestead is basically to keep him/her out of harm's way. It's not that Teryn Cousland has chosen their youngest as a possible heir to Highever, but mainly making sure that if something happens to him or Fergus, there is someone there to carry on the family name. With playing a female, there's then the added reason of - what father wants to have his daughter (of whom it seems he dotes on as a female) in a situation that could mean her death? Even so, if you talk to Father after the cut-scene in Fergus' room, bringing up the topic of Duncan basically leads him into stating that if being a Grey Warden is what Pup wants, they can talk about it after he returns home.

As far as Ser Jory and the tournament, when it comes to whether or not he should have heard of, or recognized, the youngest child - who knows how long Jory has actually lived in Highever? Could it be that he married Helena and impregnated her while on a visit from Redcliffe, had to return and receive permission to go on leave from Eamon to be with Helena, until he could bring her back to Recliffe? During which, in that time, he proceeded to participate in the tournament in Highever, winning it, and therefore a spot in the Grey Wardens (were he to survive the joining that is). It just could very well be that he hadn't been in Highever long enough to learn much of the Teryn's family other than possibly meeting the Teryn, and perhaps Fergus, due to the fact that he is a knight and 'borrowed' from Arl Eamon's service. Also, as Cara stated, tournaments can happen quite frequently and it very well could be that, not knowing how rowdy the 'peasants' could get at such an event, the youngest child was kept home? Also, just from remembering what I do of some history, unless a tournament was hosted by a member of royalty, most of them were for the entertainment of the lower classes as well as a form of earning coin by those who won. They were not safe for those of the noble classes to visit.

Last but not least - Duncan and the Grey Wardens. It has been mentioned that somehow Pup's skill has been brought to the attention of Duncan. So was Ser Gilmore's. It could be possible that there were tournaments held for the Teryn's own men, in which Pup was allowed to participate, and that's how word got out. You also figure that both the Teryn and Fergus both respect Pup's abilities, so they could have made mention of this to others, bragging as it were, and it was passed on to Duncan - as well as Ser Gilmore's abilities. Yes, Howe made mention that there was certain protocol that should be upheld when dealing with Grey Wardens, but I feel that it was more of him possibly being in a slight bit of a panic, due to the plan he already had in place to kill off the Couslands and make them look like Orlesian sympathizers (if memory serves in regards to what Howe said to my noble as to why he felt the Teryn needed to die before she killed him and his mages). I think Pup was only introduced to Duncan basically due to the fact that he would be in the castle for Ser Gilmore's testing and that he/she might be called on to make sure that all Duncan's needs were met while he was visiting. Otherwise, his visit might have gone unannounced, had it not been for the threat of the darkspawn in the south.

Bann Teagan doesn't recognize Pup when he/she is brought to him when the party enters Redcliffe. The only person he recognizes is Alistair, and even that's with a bit of prodding. Hell, Eamon doesn't even seem to know who Bryce Cousland's youngest is when you meet with him. The only person who basically 'bows' to you due to your bloodline is the Reverend Mother in Lothering (if you have the persuasion ability), and that's basically because you are then, as she puts it, the best form of secular justice in regards to Sten, as the Bann has taken his army northward into the service of Loghain.

I just realized that I might sound like I was babbling - if so I apologize. I've had a long couple of days with little sleep, and tomorrow is another one. Hopefully my points made some sense.

 

I have only one reservation about something regarding Ser Jory:

I know it's not exactly what you've been saying but nothing indicates that Ser Jory did meet the Teyrn or Fergus. Besides, there is no mention of him being "borrowed" from Arl Eamon's service (unless I completely missed it). The fact that Ser Jory's wife is from Highever doesn't mean that Ser Jory would have established himself in Highever. Since he is one of Arl Eamon's knights, his duty and the tradition of fealty dictate that he should remain in his liege's service unless his lord decided to free him from his obligations (what happened when he joined the Grey Wardens).

Regarding tournaments, we should think about them as football games. In many ways, tournaments were the football games of those days.

Really? That is so weird!

More seriously, the "stay at home and guard the castle" thing may work better for a female Pup. I don't want to sound too sexist but unless the male Pup is a complete brat, having him stay back is a bit demeaning (especially considering that Dairren is going to serve as Bryce Cousland's second) whereas a female Pup is probably not expected to take up arms (despite the fact that she may well be a battle maiden like her mother who clearly states that she is "no Orlesian wallflower").

Ser is a gender neutral term (as in Ser Cauthrien or Ser Nancine) but even if female Pup enjoys some freedom from gender restrictions it seems unlikely that she would end up being a fulltime warrior (that is before she gets recruited as a Grey Warden).

Actually, if Pup is a female the role model would be Eleanor Cousland (it may be a role model for a male Pup as well ) but being female it would only make sense for Pup not to mingle with the likes of Ser Jory and Bann Teagan (who flirts with every female warden that crosses his path).

 

The more I played the human origin the more I believe it is meant to be played as a female and not a male PC.

 

IMO a female works much better regarding most of the points that have been made in this thread (being left to keep the castle, not knowing Ser Jory, Duncan or Bann Teagan and as far as Fergus is concerned). Still, a male who would be a spoiled little brat could work too. A foppish and devious Rogue would probably work better than a huge warrior who would be more useful killing Darkspawns than sitting on his own in the great hall of the Cousland castle.

 

Bann Teagan flirts with every female warden that crosses his path? I missed this!! I want to see this!! How do I get it to happen? You figure, I've played mainly female PC's, two males (just to see the different side of how you're treated as a male), and I've never had any of my wardens experience his flirting... hell, never even saw Teagan flirt with anyone, no matter which PC I was playing.

 

I've only played a very few female characters but I remember that Teagan was distinctly hitting on my Dalish elf.

Is my memory playing tricks on me again?