Freedom Flotilla hijacked

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Actually, I think seeing commandos repelling onto my civilian ship from an Israeli Defense Force unit would make me want to lie down and interlock my fingers behind my head. The Israeli's are quite known for their itchy trigger finger.

 

Yeah, but you're a wimp.

Anyway, whether surrendering or not is the smart thing to do, that doesn't make Israel's claim of self-defense any less ridiculous.

 

Looks to me like the Israeli soldiers jumped the gun -- maybe their navigation was off and they thought they were in territorial waters? Maybe there's some obscure clause in international law that allows for boarding a vessel on the high seas that they thought they could invoke? Who knows, but now Israel has egg on their face, and they'd better wake the hell up because if they lose too many allies they are dead -- everyone may not hate them but the fact is that a lot of people really and truly do hate them!

 

When my older son was about ten we were walking through a parking lot. A car was barreling down an aisle and my son tried to walk out in front of it -- I say 'tried' because I grabbed him by the neck and hauled him out of the way. He looked at me quite indignantly and stated, "Pedestrians have the right-of-way in parking lots and the people in the cars have to stop."

I responded, "True, they are required by law to stop but sometimes they don't. If they don't stop then the driver will get a ticket for hitting a pedestrian. What do you think happens to a pedestrian who's hit by a car or truck?"

I think the analogy holds true here as well. Never argue when someone is pointing a gun at you.

LDK: It was a blockade -- blockades are normally enforced in international waters, the object is to prevent illegal items from entering territorial waters.

 

From the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

Israel supports that its action is legal because it has met all the conditions described in articles 93-101 and 103-104. The anti-israeli side supports that Israel violates article 102 and that misuses article 103a "the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted". So I guess that everything is a matter of interpretation.

Regardless of the legality of both the blockade and israeli actions against the flotilla, I have the feeling that the whole thing is bogus, something like the Reichstag burning, which aims to put Turkey in the place of muslim champion instead of Iran.

 

I really didn't know blockades had been formalized as a method of warfare ... I usually think of a blockade as a political tool (I guess war is also a political tool).

 

War is THE political tool.

 

My question now is this -- in practice, has a nation, while enforcing a blockade, ever boarded a trespassing vessel in international waters? Is it a common tactic when having a blockade? If so, then this is a tempest in a teapot and the Israelis have a right to cry foul and persecution. If not, then the Israelis have some 'splainin to do.

 

I've restrained myself from posting in this thread as long as I could. Now that more is coming out (especially video) I feel the need to respond.

First of all this thread should be retitled to "Trojan Horse intercepted" as that is clearly what it was. There isn't any intention of this entire operation to in any way be "humanitarian". The only purpose is a marketing attack against Israel which all of the usual suspects have piled on as expected. Miracle of miracles the Obama adminstration seems to be standing with Israel (at least so far).

As to hijacking, that is clearly ridiculous. These were not Somali motor boats roaring next to them with half naked people holding RPGs and AK-47s. These ships were approached by Israel naval forces and then commandos were lowered onto the ships via helicopter. There was no "shock and awe" or any confusion as to what was going on. I'm going to embed some of the video that is starting to come out as to what happened on the Mavi Marmara. On the other Trojan Horse ships the commandos landed and the people on the ship behaved like they should have and nobody got hurt. On this particular ship the crew attacked the commandos even before they hit the deck. If anything the Israelis should be getting humanitarian praise for not sinking the ships and killing everyone on board.



From a different angle



Now the pro-pal groups can whine and moan all they want as to the fairness of the blockade, but to claim that the evil Jews attacked innocent civilians is a load of crap.

I for one don't really care where in the ocean it happened as Israel has a right to defend itself and if the blockade is keeping weapons out of Gaza then I say keep on doing it.

This entire thing is nothing more than a well financed marketing campaign. I'm sure the people on the other ships are probably in trouble with their "masters" for not following the script.

I agree with you 100%. That is why Israelis don't go to into Palestinian lands and blow themselves up. Now as to why Palestinians don't have the same courtesy probably has more to do with their leaders and religion making sure that they aren't well fed, taught anger, and certainly aren't free.

 

So you're saying that the ships were carrying weapons rather than aid? I haven't heard that yet. Where is your proof?

As for a "marketeing campaign", what is wrong with trying to focus some attention on an inhumane blockade?

Edit: And as or your videos, I don't give a crap whether or not the people on the ships attached the Israelis. The ships were under attack themselves, and the people on board have the right to defend themselves against the aggressors.

 

LKD: This particular blockade is well documented. Most are -- a nation puts out the boundries and basically tells the world that everyone coming in that chuck of ocean may be boarded and searched. This notice goes out in many different ways and every commercial vessel would have some documentation (required by law). Since this blockade has been going on for over two years it's pretty clear what the Israeli's are going to do and who they board (not everyone, just the suspicious vessels).

As I've said, for the third time now, blockades are usually in international waters -- there are multiple reasons for this including shore based gunfire and the lack of effectiveness of a brown water blockade.

I don't know if this was a Trojan Horse, a humanitarian cause gone wrong, or a challenge of the blockade (the latter is most likely).

 

I never said they were bringing in weapons. However, it is clear if the blockade is lifted that is what they will bring in. That is why the ships were intercepted to make sure they didn't.

As to the marketing campagin, you have to call it what it is. I call the blockade a part of national survival.

As to your third point, that is where you are falling for the propaganda. The ships were not under attack. Nobody died or was even hurt on the other ships. They had no more right to "defend themselves" then you would if a police officer stops you for a traffic ticket (and you would be just as likely to get killed for doing so). The ships and crews clearly knew they were sailing into a blockade.

 

Snook,
you're reading threatswatch?

 

Snook,

Of course those videos show the civilians on those ships attacking the Israeli commandos. And of course that has nothing to do with the fact that those videos were released by the Israeli government

It's yet another occasion of Israel expecting there to be one rule for them and another for everyone else. If the UK was to board a Israeli vessel - even without killing its crew - on the grounds of 'security' then there would be absolute outrage from Israel.

To be honest the biggest mistake in this whole sorry mess is that the UK set up Israel in the first place - a mistake that has cost far too many innocent lives.

 

Never heard of it. I saw the videos at Barking Moonbat (one of my favorites)

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Does it matter who released the videos? If you watch you see guys coming down on ropes from a helicopter and being set upon before they even hit the ground. Do you think that this was done in a movie studio? What are your feelings about us landing on the moon?

You are making a great stretch of logic. You are assuming that the Israeli's would try to get through a blockade and then would attack the UK soldiers. Do you honestly think that is a possibility?

 

Ah, I see. I just wondered about the peculiar phrasing and tried to trace the talking point, after all this is hasbara season.

 

Of course it matters. We lack any context to the videos or any information as to when they occurred in relation to the timeline of the assault. It is just as likely that the videos were taken after commandos from a previous helicopter had already started shooting up the place - Certainly I am not prepared to trust the Israeli government to be honest and open about the whole thing.

Do I think it a possibility that were the UK or any other country to board an Israeli vessel on the basis of a threat to that country's security that Israel would be protesting vehemently (and that's even without the murder of at least 10 civilians) - yes.

And that's even without the highly suspect legality of the whole thing.

 

Fine. But in this case, they weren’t carrying weapons; when you called it a Trojan Horse, I thought that was what you were implying.

I would say that armed commandoes dropping onto your ship qualifies as an attack. And your analogy about being stopped by police only works if the intercept was legal, but in this case that is a grey area at best (T2’s comments notwithstanding).

 

I 100% agree with snook, this was a stupid action carried out by a group who clearly support an agressive stance toward Israel.

my analogy of what happened is this:

A police officer sees a man doing something he knows he shouldnt be doing, and shouts several times to that person to move on. That person ignores him, the officer approaches, as he gets close is instantly attacked by the man, after a scuffle the officer strikes the man.
but its the officer who's gets the blame.

This flotilla knew what they were doing was stupid and would provoke a response from Israel, they ignored the Isralie forces warnings and then when the Isralies came aboard 1 at a time (not as some full charge assult) they attacked them with makeshift weapons, that attack is brutal, look at it its prolonged, soldiers are beaten on the floor by their attackers who are loke baying dogs trying to rip them apart. its only when you hear shots fired that the attackers back off.

the highly suspect legality rests with the flotilla which is about to violate a blockade, to deliver 'aid'.


Israel said from very early on that they would stop the convoy, and it was ignored, As the first boat in the flotilla sailed from Dundalk, Ireland, to link up with others being readied at ports in Turkey and in Greece, Israel announced that it would bar the boats from landing.

The convoy from the beginning was designed to draw a response from Israel, the plan was to force Israel's hand to attempt an arrest, thats why there were so many people on board the ships, because the ships which were stopped in the past had their crews arrested and imprisoned for only a week before being deported, this has been admitted by a lead planner:

looks like everything almost went to plan, until some fools attacked Israelie soldiers and 10 people were killed.

 

Do you realize that the Gaza Strip is just a big enclave where 1.5 million live in virtual imprisonment? It's the Israeli government that is denying them access to food and supplies with this blockade.

As far as "teaching them anger" how would you react if you were trapped and forced to live in such conditions? You'd probably be directing your anger toward the people who deny you food and supplies and deprive you of your freedom and dignity.

By the way as far as "religion" is concerned, you should use the plural "religions" as the population is not only Muslim but comprises an important Christian minority.

On the subject of religion I've heard on the news that there was a survivor of the Holocaust on one of the ships. Being Jewish doesn't mean unconditionally supporting Israeli policies.