US Border Agent shoots Mexican Teen

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Since this may involve US/Mexican politics, I'm putting this in Lingering Sighs rather than Dangerous Angles. A US Border Patrol agent recently shot a Mexican teen to death while in a border dispute. The agent claims he was 'surrounded by aggressive Mexicans throwing rocks'. Video evidence shows that, at worst, rocks were being thrown at him from one direction by young teens some yards away. Some are saying no rocks were thrown at all.

The Mexicans are calling it 'excessive force', and I have to agree. Even the rocks bit is moot as, unless they're body builders hurling boulders at him, it's pretty non-lethal, thus not justifying a lethal response.

 

To play devil's advocate -- stoning was a death sentence. Thrown rocks can cause damage.

 

Well, T2, we had a saying when I was a kid:

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but guns will blow your head off.

Or something like that...

 

Like I said, if these were bodybuilders hurling small boulders at him, it may have met lethal force, but they weren't.

 

Were they throwing rocks at officers over the border? Did the border officer fire over the border? I would consider both of these scenarios an act of war against the other country. I think that's the bigger issue at hand here.

 

I think that's a stretch starfox.

 

If the rocks were pebbles, that's one thing, but if they were anything over two inches in diameter and hurled by a competent person at, let's say, 80 miles per hour, watch out. Injury and death could indeed occur, imo.

 

Since neither act was sanctioned by the nations involved, I don't think anyone's talking war. Had either president ordered the actions, or had they been in compliance with official policy, maybe.

 

Most people can't throw a baseball 80 mph -- I know I can't! -- so I daresay the type of competence you are alluding to would be....rare.

 

Average pro baseball pitchers throw close to 90 mph. I don't think 80 is unrealistic for, as I say, a competent person, but even if we drop that to 70, I think it's still very dangerous and potentially lethal.

Let's put it another way: would you volunteer for an experiment where a healthy and athletic but otherwise average 25 year old tried to pelt you in the head with a 2" diameter rock, at full throttle, just to see what would happen?

 

Not to get too snippy, but people who've never been trained to pitch usually can't throw much harder than 60. Most can't even throw that hard.

That depends on what it pays.

 

Pro pitchers throw offspead stuff at 80 mph ... that's considered slow. If someone can't bring their heat at 20 mph under that, then they're not competent. Also, from what limited understanding I have of the dynamics of such things, I think that speed and the energy required to produce it do not increase at a steady rate. i.e., it does not require much effort to play catch and throw a ball at let's say 40 - 50 mph (anything less would really be excruciatingly slow - lobs, basically), while a tremendous effort is required to go from 95 mph (the typical speed of most power pitchers in the majors) to 100 mph (a level very few reach - only the elite can do it).

I was never clocked in high school, but I'm certain I threw harder than 60 mph, and I was never really 'trained.' And I was nothing special. Even weekend warrior softballers can get a ball across the diamond in a second or two.

I guess the question is, at what speed would we consider a thrown, hard projectile dangerous to a person? Even if 60 mph really is the limit of most people, well, I personally wouldn't want to get hit by anything moving 60 mph, let alone 70, 80, or 90.

Name your price - what would it be worth to you to risk it?

 

How are baseball skills material to a kid throwing rocks? Who said the kid knew baseball (as in the Matrix: 'I know kung-fu!')?

I think T2 summed it up best: Since thrown rocks can cause damage, and even grievous bodily harm, the kid had it coming. It is sure possible that, by throwing rocks, the kid could have hurt or even killed the border patrol agent. Anything that may constitute a physical harm to a border patrol or police officer justifies a forceful response, and if the only weapon the agent had was his pistol - how else should he have protected his hide?

 

I did not say that Ragusa.

First of all I do not believe the officer was warranted in using deadly force. However, as my mother used to say, "Never mess with a guy who has a gun." Obviously this was a lesson the teen was never taught.

 

T2,
sheesh! Don't destroy my argumentum ad shoshinem. I spent at least a little effort on it.

I agree with you that the officer was not justified in using his weapon. The 'never mess with someone who has a gun' (because he could shoot you) part is almost banal. One could add to that '... and a badge' but anyway, it is a good guideline. What it is not is either an explanation or a justification for the officer's action (I know you never said that).

I apologise for twisting your words (if I really did that; actually, I thought you were being sarcastic): I just used your post as a starting point for the first sentence to then go on and project Shoshi's argument or sentiment for why Israel was totally ok to shoot people on the Mavi Marmara on this case and so came to the above ... result. Snark!

 

I'd say it's unwise to throw a rock(s) at someone who has a gun. As an aside, most people who aren't trained to pitch are not throwing over 60 mph. That said, I wouldn't want to be hit in the head by a rock travelling even 40 mph.

 

Kids throwing rocks can kill. I have actually been witness to it. Twice. But to kill was never the intention of the rock-thrower in either incident and everyone knew it. In this case though, why were kids throwing rocks at a CBP officer? There is no friendly game being played here. To throw rocks at cop it asking for big trouble. I wasn't there, so I don't know if firing his gun is justifiable(though I don't see it ever being justifiable unless he really thought his life was in danger, maybe he did?), as I wasn't feeling his pain, but throwing rocks at a cop is asking for "something to happen". And usually it won't be pretty.

 

You've seen two kids get killed by thrown rocks? Where do you live, man?

 

I feel no sympathy for the little criminal. He was engaged in illegal activity, decided he could flagrantly break the law and yet hide behind it. Like so many arrogant young fools, he thought that consequences would never happen to him. Well, one did. Maybe that'll make his friends think twice before screwing around at the border again.

 

Exactly...they were taunting the agent *after* the little (repeat) criminals had already crossed the border. As the old saying goes, "Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned."
The drug/human smugglers use underage kids to do their dirty work because they if they get caught, their charges will be less severe. But a 15 year old kid knows exactly what he's doing. This kid had it coming.

Call me whatever you want, but I've always been a fan of making the US/Mexico border a *very* dangerous and deadly place to try to sneak across. I hope this sends a message to the drug dealers and human smugglers.