Archery build: Rogue or Warrior?

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I've just ran a couple of tests. Starting Awakening with a level 18 Elf Grey Warden. I only fought the few Darkspawns at the beginning. The gear is the starting gear. I went for extreme stats rather than well rounded stats in order to compare. In both cases I activated Aim and Mhairi's Rally. Both characters used the same weapons (but different armours).

I noticed that Final Blow and Deadly Strike only worked with melee attacks.

I've given both characters 30 points in Dexterity and the three first lines in Archery (no Awakening talent).

The Warrior:

The Rogue:

For what it's worth, it stresses the importance of Mark of Death (which was obvious) and it also shows that the Warrior option has more staying power but that the Rogue has the potential for more damage by using abilities.

If the characters were built differently the results would have been different (Assassin + Duelist bridge the gap damage wise and Berserker gives the character an edge as far as damage is concerned -though enabling berserk requires switching between a melee weapon and the bow).

Ignoring Awakening Archery talents (they are just sick) it's obvious that both characters would have fared better using melee weapons.

The Rogue loses out on Backstabs and that is a real loss for a Rogue in that respect the Warrior doesn't lose as much (damage would be higher in melee but still backstab is what makes Rogues good IMHO).

The Rogue still has is bag of tricks but the Warrior has definitely more staying power. Not to mention that the Rogue would have to stack up on stamina potions because there is no way for the Rogue to regain stamina like the Warrior (thanks to Death Blow and later on Second Wind).

I think that Awakening Archery Talents would burn more quickly through the Rogue's stamina reserve (of course a Rogue has more skills so taking Clarity would be easier but a Warrior could sacrifice versatility and still get Clarity).

In the early game the Warrior is better. Once the Rogue gets Lethality it becomes quite good. Later on Stealth makes the Rogue really good (but it may delay Archery talents). In Awakening I'm pretty sure that the Warrior can get the most of the new talents thanks to a higher stamina and more ways to regain stamina.

Of course the Rogue can still be a viable build with Mark of Death and Stealth but using these talents cost stamina.

Gameplay wise the Warrior is going to be a more straightforward character. But the Rogue Archer is probably losing too much by being unable to use backstabs and Feast of the Fallen (not to mention that the Shadow specialization from Awakening is not that useful for an Archer whereas the Warrior can benefit from the Spirit Warrior specialization). It may work for a support character but I have serious misgivings for a main Rogue Archer in Awakening. Damage will be good that much is true but it won't last long (unless you invest a lot into Willpower to boost stamina otherwise it's probably not worth it compared to a Warrior).

Rogue backstabber are just too good in Awakening (Flicker anyone?) so the Rogue Archer may still work pretty well in DAO I don't think it gets any better in Awakening.

At least that's my opinion, being unable to use talents because stamina is too low would be way too frustrating to me and skipping an awesome talent like Flicker would also annoy me quite a bit. A Warrior Archer will lose the ability to use Massacre but Awakening Archery talents compensate that loss.

I'm not saying you can't make a Rogue work in Awakening as an Archer, I'm just saying that given all these points I'd feel more comfortable playing a Warrior Archer at that point (and I'll trade a Warrior Archer for a Rogue backstabber any time but playing a Rogue Archer who would use a regular melee weapon to take advantage of Flicker and Feast of the Fallen would be rather pointless -just skip Archery altogether or better yet invest in the Awakening line later on for a limited use of ranged weapons).

 

There's no question that a backstabbing rogue is better than a bow wielding rogue, that's why I've beaten Origins twice with this build, and Awakening once. I'd say a mage is also better than an archer, perhaps even better than a dual wielding rogue due to their ability to damage numerous targets consistently.

That said, with my current run through the point was to play an archer, not because it’s the best option, but because I hadn’t played one yet. I haven’t paid much attention to the Awakening archery talents yet, so perhaps you’re right, maybe I’ll find my character falling behind there. That said, I’m sure that with a little effort I’ll find some good willpower boosting items. I plan to use armor with very low fatigue (possibly the medium superior dragonscale armor from Wade or possibly the player made light armor that can be found in the Urn of Sacred ashes.

I’m sure I’ll be able to use plenty of talents. Maybe not as many as a warrior, but somehow I think I’ll get by just fine….

 

That can be done. The game is not that hard to beat. Just make sure you stack some Stamina potions for the biggest fights.

Mages are boring. Backstabbing Rogues on the other hand... Now that's my kind of fun.

 

I haven't seen a single stamina potion in the game in the last 5 games I've beaten it in... are they craftable only? If so, I should pay more attention.

To be honest on most fights, even on hard, I've never had drained my stamina (although I do use a lot of mana potions for mages).

 

Awakening ONLY

 

For me, in a lot of ways my arcane warrior was actually more fun than my dual wielding rogues. Dual wielding rogues certainly are monsters, but playing their role and tactics can actually become rather predictable after a while. Get behind enemy and stab, stab, stab. Admittedly, it’s a joy to watch, especially with the finishing moves and various talents, but even still, there’s not too much variety after a while.

My arcane warrior, on the other hand, had anything but a predictable role. From one fight to the next, I would use him in very different ways. Sometimes I went in with the sword and simply hacked like a warrior. Sometimes I powered down the big sustainable buffs and played a more traditional mage role. More often I was doing a blended fighting style that combined martial fighting and magic. Sometimes I’d use that magic to heavily damage a group of enemies before entering the fray. Sometimes I’d be disabling enemies to make a bad situation winnable. I’d often be assisting Wynne in casting healing spells. Because I was the best tank in the group, by far, I usually entered the fight first, and I had the ability to keep agro in almost every fight. This character was definitely the MVP of that party.

Getting back to my rogue archer, I finally got Arrow of Slaying last night. My first time using it was against an unarmored cultist in the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and I landed a whopping 452 damage! Wow! That also gained me the heavy hitter achievement, finally. Arrow of Slaying certainly seems to be situational, and I’m going to need to pump my survival to better assess who the best targets are. At level 13, with aim and the ranger wolf pet active, once I use this talent my stamina is pretty much done, but it’s a fun new toy to have in the bag of tricks. I’m going to use it regularly until I get the achievement associated with it, then I will probably scale back the usage to those few ideal moments when it will really make a difference.

 

What Munchkin pointed out is correct, Stamina potions only exist in Awakening.

I play a heavily modded game on Nightmare and I find that using too many abilities leave my characters with a depleted stamina bar. Of course I don't invest much in Willpower so talents like Death Blow or Feast of the Fallen are probably more important in my games. With Feast of the Fallen my backstabbers very rarely run out of stamina and that is a good thing.

Arrow of Slaying is good when you want to take out a Mage with an Archer. Killing white enemies with one arrow is not worth it when you look at the time it requires and the stamina cost. It's not useless but it's a trick that is useful in certain situations, abusing it just burns through stamina really fast.

There is no reason why a backstabbing Rogue can't be used differently than the get behing the foe/stun the foe and stabbity stab. Stealth, traps, poisons are fun. You can do pretty much what you want (although using bombs while stealthed is just cheesy). Once you've backstabbed too many enemies they start to realize that the Rogue is more dangerous than the hulking tank in heavy armour and this is the perfect time to use Stealth (or Feign Death although it wouldn't be my first choice) once they ignore the Rogue it's time for some more stabbing.

The Arcane Warrior used in combat is the most boring character I can think of. It can't use any tricks like a Warrior and it's just point and click, you don't have to manage the position of the character like you would have to with a Rogue. I've taken Arcane Warrior for the extra resistance but using one as a melee fighter is way too boring for me. Mages are a bit straightforward (at least IMO) they nuke, they hit and heal, they disable enemies and curse them... It's all fine but it doesn't make the game very challenging or fun since Mana is never a problem with lyrium potions you can just spam spells while other spells cool down (the cold line is just too good IMO even with the latest patch preventing Cone of Cold abuse and don't get me started on Force Field, that spell just breaks the game IMO).

I like facing enemy mages though. They make up some nice fights although a good backstabber will finish off an enemy mage very quickly if it gets close enough to stun the Mage.

 

They don't have any tricks? Wouldn't running into a fight and freezing and damaging 5 enemies with cone of cold count as a trick (which absolutely does require careful positioning)? Then adding a mind blast to the mix once the enemies are no longer frozen. Then perhaps a mass paralysis once mind blast has worn off, all the while hacking and slashing at your foes to bring them down. This might make a fight rather one sided, but that's only because they have SO MANY tricks up their sleeve that they can just keep them coming.

The Battlemage in Awakening can freeze and seriously damage all enemies in a decent radius of him.

And those are just a few examples of tricks an arcane warrior has. My point is, there is plenty for them to do beyond just pointing and clicking, which is what makes them a very fun build for me to play.

 

These are tricks that ANY mage could use.

And you misread what I posted. The Arcane Warrior doesn't have any trick that would make the fighting part more interesting; like a Warrior using Shield Bash or a Rogue using Riposte for instance. The Arcane Warrior is a "warrior" in name only. In melee it's just hack and slash with an Arcane Warrior except when casting spells that will most of the time require the Arcane Warrior to use a staff or sheath weapons (thus making the very use of weapons a bad idea in most occasions unless you select spells that won't force your character to sheath his weapons when casting).

I know how to use Mages, it's just that I find them powerful but utterly and incredibly boring and an Arcane Warrior is no exception as the specialization doesn't really spice things up (in that respect a Blood Mage is much more fun).

If we're taking Awakening into account then a high level Rogue is probably as powerful as a Battlemage anyway.

EDIT: for a list of spells that can be used with drawn weapons. You'll notice that Cone of Cold, Mind Blast and Mass Paralysis all require the weapons to be sheathed, hence my comment that using a staff may be a better option which of course makes the Arcane Warrior much less interesting compared to a regular Mage or another specialist (at least IMO). If my character isn't going to use a regular weapon then I'd rather invest in Blood Magic instead.

 

Just as Shield Bash is a trick ANY warrior could use. So what? They're tricks that an arcane warrior has that allows them to do more than just "point and click."

I don't think I misread it at all. On the contrary, you just don't seem to fully understand my response --or perhaps I'm not explaining it very well. Just as a warrior wades into battle with his sword and his "tricks", so does an arcane warrior -- at least the way I play one he does. Both enter the fray with their weapons, and where a warrior might slash with a sword and follow up with bash of his shield, an arcane warrior might slash with his sword and follow up by casting a spell. The point is, it's a fighting style all its own, which combines swordplay and magic, but is otherwise similar in many ways to what non-mage classes do.

True, many spells require sheathing weapons, but it's not like sheathing a weapon is the end of the world. Hit the "/" key to swap out a staff first, and you are casting that spell almost instantly. Once the spell is cast, another "/" to reequip your weapons. Once you get used to this, it's no big deal, really.

Obviously, at a certain point this all just comes down to personal preference. I certainly can't deny you your opinion that an arcane warrior is dull and a rogue is way more fun. I have beaten DAO twice with a rogue and once with an arcane warrior, and I've beaten Awakening once with each, so my opinions are based on plenty of in game experience. Really, in my opinion both classes are overpowered and make the game easy, but I find that the arcane warrior is a much more versatile and flexible build than is a rogue.

Why? Because I can be a pure mage when the situation calls for it. I can be a pure warrior (though a substandard one) when the situation calls for it (when fighting against masses of grunt level enemies, for example). Or I can play a much more interesting blended playstyle where I am simulataneously mage and warrior. I can lay traps using the glyph line of spells. That much variety, to me, is anything but boring.

That said, I love me some good rogue action too.

 

It's a good thing that you find Arcane Warriors to be enjoyable if they suit your playing style. IMO they don't substitute for pure warriors. Even "substandard" badly built warriors would fare better. No bells and whistles so to speak. The "warrior" thing is a complete misnomer as far as Arcane Warriors are concerned.

What a Warrior does is part of his/her fighting style, what an Arcane Warrior does is more like a Rogue throwing a bomb. It has nothing to do with wielding a weapon. Hence the "warrior" part is misleading at best.

And I do get your point. What I'm saying is that an Arcane Warrior is just a Mage posing in an armour and certainly not a true Warrior. Damage and hit rate may be ok but the rest is lacking (and that is probably a good thing too if only for balance reasons).

It is a severe limitation and sucks big time -and I did complete the game with an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage. I find that having a Berserker Archer switching to melee weapons to enable Berserk before switching back to a bow to be a major hindrance so having to switch between weapons every time I would like a character to use a spell is even worse.

In the example you've posted earlier the Arcane Warrior would have to switch weapons once to cast cone of cold, switch back to fight, switch back to cast mind blast, switch back to fight, switch back to cast mass paralysis and switch yet another time.

If you limit yourself to spells that can be used with drawn weapons then the build is limited to glyphs, heal and most spirit spells (not all of them).

I'd use a staff or even no weapon at all. Thinking about it an Arcane Warrior would be an interesting specialization for an unarmed character.

To each his own. I wouldn't call them overpowered, IMO the game is just too easy and Mages and Rogues are the two classes that can use some cheesy tactics (casting out of line of sight, abusing -almost- broken spells like cone of cold or force field, stacking poisons or using bombs in stealth among many other things).

But it's true that in comparison a Warrior can't abuse so many things.

But then it's no secret that I find Mages to be boring. I never said they were not powerful. I'm just saying that the Arcane Warrior is not a warrior and at best a poor excuse as a warrior.

If you pick up the Arcane Warrior you have to use spells to make it work, it does very poorly in a fight otherwise (and it would be a terrible idea not to use spells anyway). I think it may even be better not to give a real weapon to such a character because of the annoying switching back and forth and what does that say about the Arcane Warrior? Pretty much that it is a purely defensive specialization based on some nice abilities shielding the character from harm rather than making it a decent fighter. IMO it's probably the most overrated specialization in the game (people keep raving about them and dissing Shapeshifters that becomes irritating).

How did we stray so much away from the topic of Archery?

Anyway, Marceror, did you ever use an Arcane Warrior with a bow? It's a really crazy idea, Have you given it a try?

 

Nor should they be anyhwere near as effective as fighters as an actual warrior is. A warrior is someone who has trained with swords and shields for years and years. They are true athletes who are nothing without their physical prowess.

An arcane warrior, on the other hand, is something very different. He is mage who has spent his life studying magic instead of the intense physical rigors of a warrior. Well into his path as a mage he begins to learn to focus the power of his magic into weapons, requiring signficant magical extertion to do so. He has also learned to transform his magical powers into a sort of physical strength (allowing him to wear heavy armors that that he would otherwise be incapable of). The ability to focus magic into melee prowess is impressive, but does not replicate the years of training that a true warrior has undergone, which includes learning difficult tactics with weapon and shield.

In terms of melee prowess, the arcane warrior will never match a warrior with weapon alone. Spells are still needed to make an arcane warrior truly effective. As a tank, on the other hand, the arcane warrior can outshine the warrior by a large margin. The arcane warrior should have insanely high armor, a very high defense, insane physical and mental resistance, and very high elemental resistances. They can also weaken all foes in proximity. This is powerful stuff.

But will they ever be true warriors? No, nor should they be. A warrior needs to have something to make it special and unique. It's many tricks with weapon and shield are what sets it apart.

It has nothing to do with wielding a weapon, true, but it has everything to do with employing an effective fighting style for an arcane warrior. From an RP perspective these spells are very different from a rogue throwing a bomb. The bomb is something crafted, and is a tool that can only be used if their is an inventory of bombs on hand. The arcane warriors spells are a part of the mage's very being, and he would be foolish to ignore them for long just because he has a sword in hand.

Wholeheartedly agree! This is as it should be. And this is what I enjoy about it the arcane warrior. It's a mage that can use his magic to tank and wield a sword. But magic can only take a mage so far in martial pursuits.

Perhaps a lot of this boils down to expectations. I never expected my arcane warrior to be a true warrior, but a mage that can get into the thick of the battle and fight. Going back to my D&D days, I've always enjoyed the idea of playing a fighter/mage, but got used to the fact that in that game you generally had to sacrifice quite a bit, and might not be particularly good at either fighting or magic. Yet, I managed to play and enjoy several fighter-mage characters in CRPGs and Pen-and-Paper.

Comparing those characters to the arcane warrior, the arcane warrior is far more powerful. They are every bit as powerful as any other mage, but a lot more flexible. This is probably the most effective fighter mage I've played. So for me, this isn't boring at all.

From a true power gaming perspective, staff is probably the way to go. You never miss, and with a good staff, staff mastery, and a very high spellpower that staff will be hitting hard. But then again, I guess that would make you an arcane tank rather than an arcane warrior. I would probably stick with the sword, since, as I already mentioned, I like the concept of a fighter-mage.

This is just semantics, I suppose. Part of the reason the game is too easy is because certain classes are so powerful. Either way, the mage and rogue are the powerhouse classes, and feel overpowered to me (especially in the late game).

I generally agree with this assessment, but I don't have a problem with it. I actually think Bioware did a good job creating the arcane warrior. They played up the defensive capabilities, which means that they can actually go toe to toe with enemies. But they can't replace a true warrior in terms on their swordplay. Well done, I say.

I was initially disappointed with the arcane warrior, and abandoned my first attempt to play one. They just didn't live up to the hype. It wasn't until I went back and evaluated the AW on its own merits (not the fluffed up rumblings so prevalent around the Net) that I began to enjoy playing it. I completed Awakening with a VERY impressive kill and damage record, so I certainly don't feel I have anything to complain about.

Oh yeah, archery! The idea of a bow wielding AW doesn't sound overly exciting to me, since the idea of a bow wielding warrior/rogue is already fairly low on my list. I'd be more inclined to try the AW who uses a staff. Then again, I could always load up my high level arcane warrior, give him a bow, and see how he does with it over a short play through. Maybe I'll try that and report back.

 

We seem to agree on most points except that I would have preferred a character who would be closer to the old multiclass type, less arcane power but some proficiency with weapons. I found a mod like this, really interesting but probably too overpowered.

By the way I don't think the problem is classes being overpowered except if we consider Awakening) the lack of challenges comes from the AI not adapting quickly enough (force field for instance) the low number of enemies who don't use their talents much and last but not least the fact tha healing makes fights a jokes when you have hundreds of health poultices and lyrium potions (I must look for a mod that "fixes" this last point).

I haven't tried it on my Arcane Warrior but I think damage would be ok, attack fair enough but the lack of talents would make it a very poor choice (especially without Melee Archer). Staves are probably the best weapons for a Mage anyway (Arcane Warrior or otherwise).