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High court strikes down Chicago handgun ban

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by The Great Snook, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. mordea Banned

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    So if X doesn't want a gun, you can't conceive of why Y might want a gun?

    Furthermore, why should their 'wants' matter? They are entitled under a Constitutional Amendment to bear arms.
     
  2. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Show me where that has been the case.

    Again, show me which specific laws you refer to.

    Have you ever looked at their "literature?"

    Did you not read my post on the Constitution?

    Thank you for proving my point about hysteria....:)

    Can you explain these laws in greater depth?

    You seem intent on proving my point regarding hysterical propaganda.

    Just go back and read my post again. A large part of your question is already answered there.

    Why don't you look at some facts, such as the "restrictive firearms legislation" that was passed after the VA Tech tragedy in Virginia -- Just as an example? Another suggestion: Go back and read my posts more carefully, since it appears you didn't bother the first time.
     
  3. mordea Banned

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    Off the top of my head: Australia. The United Kingdom. New Zealand. In these countries (especially the UK), it is very difficult for an average law abiding citizen to own gun.

    Why specific laws? I'm not going to waste my time. It is enough to observe the enactment of gun control legislation in countries such as the UK has resulted in the average citizen being disarmed. Indeed, in Australia, it is prohibited to own a firearm without demonstrating *just cause*. Note that 'self-defense' is not considered just cause.


    Nope. And I don't want to.

    No. Why would I?

    :rolleyes:

    As I've already clearly stated, I live in a country which introduced some restrictive firearms legislation. Dissenting opinion was drowned out with fear, demagoguery, and pandering. This led to the enactment of more and more restrictive gun laws, until we reached a point where it's almost impossible for the average citizen to own a gun. And even then, the government's nose is so far up their ass that they might as well not have it in the first place.

    So seriously, don't you say it's hysteria, it's REALITY. Don't you belittle my experiences, because it *happened*. Where once the average citizen could 'bear arms' without being treated like a ****ing criminal, now there there is immense legislation, regulation, and negative social stigma attached to owning a firearm.

    You're welcome to do your own research. I suggest you start by analysing the introduction of gun legislation and the United Kingdom and Australia. Then work from there. I'm not going to spoonfeed you.

    Once again: It's not hysteria, it's reality. I come from the generation who grew up watching as our government slowly but surely manipulated the public and stripped away the rights of citizens by enacting more and more restrictive gun legislation.

    You're right, I didn't read the other posts. And I don't want to. Nor do I have to in order to contribute something worthwhile to this thread. If you want to disregard my experiences as 'hysteria', then fine by me. But I think it's tremendously idiotic to not listen to the experiences citizens in countries with fanatical gun control. We've been there, done that.

    To the remaining Americans in this thread, I just have one thing to say. FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS THAT YOUR ANCESTORS STRUGGLED TO OBTAIN! DON'T LET THEM TAKE EVEN ONE RIGHT, NO MATTER HOW 'SMALL', 'TRIVIAL', OR 'UNNECESSARY' THEY MAY CLAIM IT IS! THE MOMENT THEY TAKE ONE, THEY TAKE MORE AND MORE! DON'T LET THEM! DON'T GIVE AWAY WHAT LITTLE FREEDOM YOU HAVE, DON'T BE COMPLACENT, DON'T THINK THAT IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU! BECAUSE ONE DAY YOU WILL WAKE UP WITH NOTHING!
     
  4. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    Why the hell should a normal citizen be allowed to carry a gun? I can't think of 1 reason. Personally, I would poop myself if I lived in a country where any Tom, Dick or Harry could be legally packing gear. There's a lot of crazy peple out there, without giving them easy access to guns (when I was there, I saw a gun stall inside a Walmart! A bloody supermarket! "Yeah, I'd like a lettuce, a pack of tomatos, a loaf of bread and a Baretta 9mm please")

    America will take many, many years to get out of this 'need a gun' mentality. They should illegalize guns through the entire country ASAP. Then give it a few years for that idea to sink in and settle down, then hold regular gun amnestys through every state where people can hand in their guns without prosecution. After a few years of that, the punishments should be severe. Get guns out of the public domain, get this idea out of the head that every citizen 'has a right' to one, and less people will die of gun crime.
     
  5. mordea Banned

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    SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL! *starts goosestepping*
     
    The Great Snook likes this.
  6. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    Err... hang on, are you comparing the anti-gun ownership argument to the Nazi movement?!
     
  7. mordea Banned

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    I am comparing your attempt to disarm the citizenry via coercion to that a totalitarian regime. Strangely enough, a number of these regimes engaged in genocide and numerous human rights abuses right after disarming the populace, while facing very little opposition from the citizenry...

    Nahh, I'm sure it was just a coincidence. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    Stopping citizens having firearms is not totalitarian, it's just sensible.

    Are you actually frightened that the American government is going start abusing your human rights, and the only way you can stop these nasty men is to arm yourself? Crikey, it's that bad is it? God help you...
     
  9. mordea Banned

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    Wrong! Using coercion (*force*) to disarm citizens, effectively removing one of the few means they have to defend themselves against threats to their life and liberty, is totalitarian.

    Wait, do you mean to tell me that you trust your government to act in your best interest? Haha, seriously?! I'd say that you have been hitting the bong, but that wouldn't make sense, since your totalitarian government probably doesn't allow you to do that either!

    But I must ask you: Are you so fearful of your fellow man, that you aren't comfortable with giving them the means to empower themselves?
     
  10. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    I was referring to the US. As has been pointed out already, different countries have different Contitutions. Even in the case in Chicago, the ban was on "hand guns," not completely disarming citizens of all guns. Nevetheless, I believed the Court ruled correctly in this instance. As I pointed out, the right to own guns is an individual right. However, the minority opinion raised some interesting questions:

    http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=McDonald_v._City_of_Chicago

    This thread is about a ruling by the US Supreme Court. There is a context in which we are debating gun control, which is within the US Constitution and local and state laws of the Untied States. Every country has the right to pass laws based upon its own Constitution and local laws enacted by local governments, independently of what the US Supreme court does.

    The US Superme Court says otherwise in the ruling under discussion.

    Then it's a meaningless point.

    Because you were arguing with me on a point we both agreed on.

    Yes, but it is pointless, because:

    1. This thread is about the US Supreme court and the Contitution of the US.
    2. Despite that fact that you directed your comments at me, I don't even know where you are. So what's your point regarding my posts on US guns laws?

    I wasn't even referring to you, or "your experiences," since you don't live here. Get a grip, you are arguing with someone who agrees with you, and who was not even speaking of you or your country. You started out by claimimg that you "observed" the situation here in the US, when in fact you can't offer any evidence that you have.
     
  11. mordea Banned

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    Jesus Christ. I put forward my own experiences, and the happenings in other nations, to demonstrate why what you claimed to be 'hysteria' might actually be valid concern. I made this crystal clear. Had you bothered to read my post before responding, you would know this.
     
  12. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Yes, but my post was about hystria here in the US, not anywhere else. Got it now?
     
  13. mordea Banned

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    I already 'had' it. Once again, my own experiences, and the happenings of other countries in regards to gun control, support the validity of that 'hysteria'.

    The fact that you can't grasp the notion of 'Been there, done that' is quite telling.
     
  14. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    What's "telling" is that you don't know much about the situation here in the US.
     
  15. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    mordea... you are quite frightening.

    To be honest, you are the anti-gun ownership argument wrapped up into one little weird aggressive guy. No way would I let you anywhere near a gun!
     
  16. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    That entirely depends on the gun laws you're talking about. The laws in DC and these cases completely banned handguns, and placed such restrictions on rifles that they could never be anything more than display pieces, not practical weapons. That's pretty much 'taking guns away from average citizens". Other laws don't go so far, whether their intention is to have that effect or not, and still others are just downright reasonable. But, nonetheless, some laws do exist with exactly that intent.

    The UK. From what I know, the only people allowed to own guns in the UK are definitely not average citizens.

    He wasn't, though. His original comment started:
    It may be a stretch to connect non-US gun law enactment to US gun law enactment, but it was his stated objective.

    I fail to find any of those to be reasons to dissent. Reasons to go further in-depth on the issue, sure, but not dissent.
     
  17. mordea Banned

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    And I admitted as much in my first post!

    However, I have personally experienced the end result of the implementation of gun control legislation in *my* country. And what you label as paranoia, I have lived through.

    LOL! You're scared of my opinion that the government shouldn't be able to employ coercion to disarm all of its citizens? If I needed any more evidence that anti-gun zealots are scared of their own shadow, there it is.

    "Dear gubmint, Im scarred ob guns. Me don't want to ownz one. Can you also plead, plead plead altho take awai guns from all otha peoples, I don thin they need dem. They hab u, the benev.. benevo... err, nice gubmint, to protec dem! By da way, der ib this bad man on a interna fora sayin gubmint shouldnt be able to tramp on him. He say very bad foughts, think citizen should have wrigh.. wrigh... um, be able to do stuf wifout gubmint hold hand. Me try belittl da dissentah into silah, but he still keep post. I don now wha to do. Plea, plea plea protect me fro bad words gubmint!

    Thank you gubmint,

    From
    Barmy

    P.S
    Plea find 80% of mah income enclo so you can pratec me."
     
    NOG (No Other Gods) likes this.
  18. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    You've almost redeemed yourself with that letter. It gave me a chuckle, good lad!

    You're still a loon, though.
     
    LKD likes this.
  19. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    There are always going to be local laws that are exceptions, but "generally" gun restrictions here do not "disarm citizens" nor is that the intent of the majority of gun laws and you know it.

    Since when does the SC make rulings for the UK? Or the US Congress pass laws for citizens in the UK? I know you don't mean to say that, but I don't think the UK is a realistic example for the US.

    Yes, actually after saying that, he went on to do just that.

    Oh, like giving guns to criminals? or the mentally ill? Right.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 10 minutes and 15 seconds later... ----------

    I did not label anything in your country as "paranoia." I don't even now which country you live, so how would I know? I was only speaking of MY experiences within MY country.

    It is for the citizens to decide what laws they want their government to enact. People can change it any time they wish -- that is our process of law and government.
     
  20. mordea Banned

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    I know that that comment wasn't directed at me this time, but it does address what I've said previously.

    Looking at the trends that occur as a result of gun control laws being enacted in other countries can be very instructive. To disregard such trends out of hand and say 'Well, that will never happen in America!' is rather naive.

    If you look at other countries, you will find that the erosion of rights is gradual. Give the government (or anyone, for that matter) an inch, and they will take a mile. Or, as the Dutch would say, give a finger, and they will take an arm.

    I understand that the United States is not Britain or Australia, but nor is there anything 'special' about Americans. You are human beings, you have a large government, and therefore you are at risk of excessive legislation and the nullification of your rights on a whim. Indeed, if anything, American citizens are just as prone to government abuses as those evil 'socialised' nations. Just recently, it was argued that an American citizen accused of terrorism should not be afforded his Miranda Rights. Ergo: In order to strip a tax paying citizen of their rights, one simply need accuse them of a serious crime.

    Quite simply, I am looking at the big picture. Maybe, just maybe, the enacting of some gun control legislation would not lead to the average, law abiding citizen finding it more difficult to obtain a firearm. Maybe Americans are indeed a unique people, and your government won't progressively legislate away more and more of your rights whenever it has the opportunity to do so. But from what I have seen both within and outside the U.S, I wouldn't bet my balls on it.

    Oh. Who's being naive, Kay?
     
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