Rogue - Cunning vs. Strength

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I am close to completing DAO with my female human noble rogue. This character has the assassin and duelist specializations and is a dexterity and cunning rogue. I have selected all rogue specific talents with the exception of feint death and the forth tier for disarm/unlock chest. In addition to the rogue specific talent all of the duelist talents have been selected and I have two of the assassin talents selected all of this at level 16. The rogue has the first three talents for dual wielding to help improve attack and defense. As for the character’s attribute distribution, every level up 1 point is invested into Dexterity and Cunning. The other point is invested into the other attributes until they are all level 20.

By the end of the game this character will be equipped with the Felon’s Vest and Wade’s superior boot and gloves. This will give the character a nice bonus to AC, defense, stamina regeneration, and dexterity. The weapons will be Duncan’s Dagger and Rose Thorn. One will be equipped with +5 fire rune, grandmaster stunning rune, and another grandmaster rune. The other weapon will be equipped with +5 electrical runes, master stunning rune, and another grand master rune.

This build has been very good but I find at times my character damage output lacking, even when back stabbing, average is around 35. Frontal assault damage is 20 or less.

I do like this rogue build a lot because I can hide if I get in a jam, than I can use a potion, followed by a bomb followed by backstab, etc… The thing is though I know I wasted attribute points on strength, willpower, magic, and constitution. If I would have invested them into cunning I deal out more damage. I typically dislike power builds but I’m curious if going with a strength and dexterity rogue would be any more beneficial than going with a cunning and dexterity build.

First off with a strength build the rogue could wear heavier armor. Second, the rogue could use two medium sized weapons instead of one medium and a dagger or two daggers. Third, point distribution would be almost equal other than how many points are placed into Cunning vs. Strength.

If I do go with a strength build rogue next my PC will go with the legionare scout specialization in DA Awakening along with the Duelist specialization. I’m not sure if I can select two specialization from DA Awakening but if I can I may also select the Shadow and if not than it would be the Assassin.

I have a couple concerns with going with a strength build.

First, would a strength based rogue damage output for two medium sized weapons be greater than the damage output from two daggers if strength and dexterity have equal values?

Second, are there any rogue specific talents that increases damage output due to a high cunning score? If so, is there a formula to use to determine the extra damage output?

Any input on the benefits of each build will be appreciated. I know that Caradhras has a preference on not investing into other attributes that don’t improve the instant kill or pure damage. However, I try to balance out my characters.

 

I don't know much of the game yet, but the Lethality skill seems to replace the Strength modifier with Cunning for damage. The rogue's daggers seem to be preferable to heavier weapons, because there are many more ways for rogues to increase the critical chance. Warrior weapons don't improve backstab damage, so any bonus from the heavy weapon will be moderated by the reduced damage from not using a rogue weapon - I think.. This leads me to my own question:
* Are there any creatures immune to backstab or criticals??
My rogue builds rely heavily on increased critical chance & increased backstab/critical damage, but if some monsters are immune, I might have a problem in the future...

 

The axe (The Valsh...something) from bodhan increases backstab damage and is a mainhand weapon .


but yeah, go cunning, it replaces str for melee damage with most weapons, but I think daggers go off dex? Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, someone else will!

 

Someone actually did the math (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777). It doesn't take the Awakening skills into account, though.

Yes, there are. Many high-level enemies that carry shield's can't be backstabbed. There's also a sword-and-shield talent that makes you immune to flanking.

 

I have read that on the PC the best rogue for damaging is a Dex build. You don't raise STR one bit. You invest just 2 points into Cunning as a human and 3 for dwarves and elves. The rest into DEX. When you reach awakening the 3rd specialization you select is Legionare Scout for +10 STR and CON and +1 damage.

The DEX build provides the best defense, very good damage dealer for daggers since 50% of the damage is from dex and increases your attack which cunning does not do.

To test all three builds I started 3 new characters in DA Awakening and used that starting equipment. For consoles this is what I discovered.

Dexterity Build - Dex is not being included in dagger damage calculation. I added 7 points to cunning to raise it to 22 and every other attribute point to dex and the damage from the daggers were less than 17 points each. Very, very, very disappointing. Dex was over 70.

Strength Build - I added 7 points to cunning, and put 20 points into Dex to get Dex to 35 for Evasion and the rest into strength. Damage for the weapons were over 28.

Cunning Build - I added 6 points into strength to raise it to 16, put 20 into Dex and the rest into Cunning. Damage for the weapons were slightly under 27.

On consoles it appears that Strenght is the way to go. It provides the best damage and an increase for attack that cunning does not provide when using rogue based feats.

If I was playing a rogue on the PC I know I would change my rogue into a Dex based build because Dex is used for damage, attack and defense. As well, all of the rogue Awakening feats are Dex based. A Dex based rogue is probably the best of the three and it is impossible for console users to verify since the game does not include Dex as a damage calculation for daggers.

I want to thank Bioware and EA for their uncontinued support for consoles. They fixed the Dex bug for the PC back in 2009. Here we are more than half way done the 2010 year, DA2 has been announced, various DLCs and updates to the systems for the DLCs have been released, PS3 had a special release due to DA stalling thanks to PS3 firmware 3.3 update, etc... and still no fix yet for the consoles for this known DEX bug.

I am seriously considering NOT BUYING DA2 at all. This is a bug that I have sent email after email to Bioware so that they can fix it on consoles. For those of you playing on PC, you don't realize how annoying it is having to have a Dex score of 50 for the Awakening feats yet your score does not increase the damage of your main characters weapons. It is very, very, very annoying.

Enough ranting...

Best Damaging Rogue Builds....
PC - Dex
Consoles - Strength

I hope this helps clarify anyones questions about rogues...

---------- Added 0 hours, 21 minutes and 24 seconds later... ----------

There is one thing to consider if you want to improve damage and go the cunning route and that is selecting bard as a specialization; it provides an increase in damage for the rogue and his/her companions as well.

 

@Coin: what Koliva said, i.e. some creatures are immune to backstabs and Sword and Shield types can be pretty hard to flank.

Regarding critical hits, I'd suggest focusing on items that increase backstab damage with Rogues (and keep items that increase critical chance for Warriors). Stealth, flanking and attacking stunned foes always result in backstabs. Death Hex, attacking from stealth with ranged weapons and Pinpoint Strike (Duelist) will turn your attacks into critical hits as well. So relying on damage bonus instead of using items that boost critical chance is probably a better choice if you're using your Rogue as a backstabber (and investing in Stealth is a necessity in that respect).

@Koliva: in Origins the Cunning Rogue is best damage wise and it doesn't require much in the way of Dexterity (24 points for Momentum is enough).

@Munchkin: I don't necessarily advocate maxing out stats but investing in stats that are more useful. In my experience (and I stress that point since playing style matters) I find the Fade bonuses with Items are enough to boost other abilities. If you spread points too much you will lose out on sheer efficiency. That won't prevent you from completing the game. My first character who was a Rogue was a mix between Dexterity, Cunning and Strength. It wasn't that good because I invested a lot in Strength to be abe to use armours and larger weapons and Cunning was wasted because Strength and Cunning were even. Add the fact that Dexterity was roughly on the same level that character worked well but was certainly not amazing.

I posted things you may find interesting in this thread.

The console makes it hard to go for a very efficient build if daggers are still bugged (and that is shameful that the support is not better -even if it's not that bad with the PC we do have to use mods to make things work with 1.03 so that is not really what I'd call support either).

The drawback of the Dexterity build is that defense won't help with certain attacks (like grab for instance so it's a good idea to keep your distances with a Dexterity build).

Evasion is good if you want to tank. There is an issue with Evasion, it will trigger an animation that interrupts the attack animation. I'm not sure how that impacts the DPS effectiveness of the build, it's great for more lasting power but I wouldn't invest in Dexterity for that reason only (Awakening talents is the reason why I'd go for a higher Dexterity with a Rogue but then there is no real point for going beyond 52 points as it is probably better to max out Cunning instead).

I actually gave the Strength Rogue a try and being able to use better armours makes the character more resilient but you lose out on damage with Exploit Weakness. Other than that it's a decent alternative if you have another Rogue to handle mundane things like locks and traps or invest in the Deft Hands line (which can be skipped with a character who maxes out Cunning). Strength has great advantages all around and only a few drawbacks (it also works well without lethality although Lethality is still worth taking for the bonus to critical chance). The Strength build has more staying power and that is a fact. At first I was concerned about lacking Armour Penetration but that is not an issue.

The Bard specialization is awesome with Cunning builds (it begins to really shine with a Cunning ability around 60).

I'm not a big fan of the Dexterity build even with proper damage with daggers. I find it lacking compared with Cunning builds (great backstabbers, maxed out damage) or Strength build (more resilient since Armour probably matters more than Defense -not getting hit at all is good but Defense with an armour is not that shabby and Armour applies to special attacks and that is a great advantage).

Damage wise, Dexterity makes for an easier start that is true.

In the end using daggers is the best choice as you get more attacks. Using one bigger weapon and a dagger is a valid alternative, using two big weapons is not such a good idea but it looks cool (a matter of choice of course). I also found out that a dagger and a shield was a pretty decent weapon choice for a Rogue (especially Duelist).

I strongly recommend the Assassin specialization though. It has major perks for a backstabber (Feast of the Fallen gets rid of any concern you may have regarding stamina).

In the end the three builds are played differently:

-the high Cunning build doesn't need armour and will abuse backstabs for more efficiency (Exploit Weakness).

-the high Dexterity build is pretty solid but lacks some of the things that I like about the other two builds. You don't have to worry too much about getting hit except by some special attacks.

-the high Strength build is very good if you want some major staying power (I'm not a fan of using Rogues as tanks but I have to recognize that such a build can be a pretty decent tank with armour and Evasion).

Stat wise, using daggers allows to skip investing too many points in Strength so 20 points with bonuses from the Fade and items is enough to get to use the best Rogue armours.

Cunning/Dexterity is the most traditional way to build up a Rogue. You get the most out of Lethality and it makes the Bard specialization worthwhile.

Strength makes for an interesting change of pace and plays rather differently. I suggest giving it a try if you want something different but still want to play a Rogue.

With Awakening you have to put 52 points in Dexterity no matter what if you want to get things like Flicker. That tends to balance things out even if you choose to invest on Strength or Cunning.

What I really don't advise is investing into Dexterity, Cunning and Strength. You're better off not investing into Cunning if you're going to put many points into Strength.

 

What really gets me is that I have to invest over 30 points into dex to use the new awakening feats but I get no increase to my character's damage from daggers. It would be nice if the PS3 had that fix implemented. I may enjoy my rogue more and go with a strength build but only invest enough points to get dex up to 52.

As for the strength build you only need a cunning score of 22 to obtain all the high level talents and abilities in DAO. With the +5 to cunning from the fade, +4 from being a rogue dwarves and elves require +3 to cunning and humans require +2 to cunning. From there the rest of the ability points can be distributed to STR and DEX if you want a DEX or STR build.

As for a cunning build, if you go with a dwarf of human you only need to invest 1 point into STR to obtain 16 with the fade bonuses, elves require two points in STR. From there it is pretty easy to get your STR score up to 20 to wear all the drakscale equipment.

I decided to play my dwarf commoner as a STR build since selecting legionare of the dead as a specialization makes perfect sense along with duelist. I'm not sure if the game allows 2 DA Awakening specialization but if it does my other would be shadow and if not assasin.

I will be playing a human rogue as a cunning build with bard, duelist, and assasin as my specializations.

Thoughts?

 

I hear that, investing points in Dexterity without any increase in damage really sucks.

I'm currently playing a Dwarf Commoner with 22 Cunning, aiming for 52 Dexterity and the rest in Strength to take advantage of heavy armours. I skipped Combat Training altogether and focused on Rogue stuff (while saving skills and talents slots for Awakening as I don't like using Manual of Focus), using a mace (for fun) and a dagger. I'm surprised that I really don't miss the Dual Wielding talents. I skipped the Deft Hand line as I didn't invest in Cunning (not a good build for a Bard) and just use Leliana for locks and traps.

Dwarf is awesome for the racial bonus (as you already know).

Now regarding specializations, I'm pretty sure you can only have three specializations (the third at level 22 iirc). What I intend to do is keep one slot open so that I'll be able to pick two specializations in Awakening, going for Assassin/Legionnaire Scout/Shadow.

I highly recommend Assassin for Feast of the Fallen (you won't run out of stamina with that talent). Duelist is good but you need to invest into it to make it work (actually it is a very good substitute to Dual Wielding), just bear in mind that Pinpoint Strike allows all hits to be critical hits but not backstabs (still pretty efficient if you ask me especially when facing bosses) the cooldown is really long though.

If you've never played a high Strength Rogue before you're in for a surprise. Damage won't be stellar at first but once you get your Strength high enough to use good armours you will notice how resilient that build is. Using a regular sized weapon in your character's main hand won't be a problem either (although as you most certainly know, two daggers are best as far as number of attacks but given that they are broken with the console a regular weapon may be a better choice). Using a dagger in the off hand speeds up the attack rate.

I think Defense is overrated because many attacks just ignore it (grab and overwhelm and the dragon chewing attack for instance) in which cases Armour helps keeping your Rogue alive.

Anyway you've got a very good idea of the builds you're going to use so there is nothing else I may add. Let me know how your Dwarf Commoner Strength build works out so we can compare notes. I find it really great, better than I thought actually (and I used to be a big fan of high Cunning builds).

 

I'm actually going with a Elf cunning build selecting Bard, Assasin and Shadow. I also have my Dwarf strength build that will be a Assasin, Legionare Scout and Duelist or Shadow. I'm not sure which specialization to use for the dwarf.

The elf with be using the Thorn Rose dagger. The Dwarf will be using the best single handed weapon that provides the best extra damage to backstabs. I believe in DAO that is Ducan's sword, Blightblood, or the Axe that can be purchased in camp. Both will be equipped with a shield.


As for armor. The elf will be equipped with Felon's Vest and other items that improve Dex, defense and stamina regen. The dwarf will get the Legion of the dead armor for the extra damage and Con that the armor provides. The Legion of the dead armor is the perfect RPG armor for the dwarven rouge. The helmet you receive as a bonus item that provides +2 Con and +10 physical and mental resistance goes perfect with the legion of dead armor and the character story.

Right now I'm playing as a city elf who talks down to humans whenever possible. I do like how you can disrespect King Calin when you get to Ostagar. I like how I was able to straight up tell the king I killed a Arl's son and live to tell about it.

I do not plan to invest any talents into dual wielding or archary. I plan to go for all the rogue and specialization talents. I have a gut feelings my character may end up with three tomes to use in DA Awakening.

My character is level 5 with a cunning score of 25 and Dex score between 18-20, not exactly sure how high Dex is right now. Every level 1 point into Dex and 2 into cunning.

 

my dwarf strength rogue is level 8 and is an assasin. His backstabs do 45-50 points of damage with a steel long sword. His natural strength is 31. My goal is to level up the character until level 17. This way I can acquire all the high level rogue and assasin talents. After that I will not level up the character until I export him to Awakening. I will have 3 or 4 manuals to provide additional talents and attribute points for the character in DA Awakening.

I have to say that even though this rogue has a harder time opening chest; he does more damage than any of my prior rogue builds and has a higher bonus to defense thanks to the larger shields he can use. I'm still in the mage tower but with backstabbing, shape changing into a golem stunning, changing back, backstabbing, etc... it is all fun and good.

I can't wait to obtain the runes to stun opponents.

 

My own Strength heavy Dwarf hasn't reached the Landsmeet yet due to my limited playing time but he is level 20 and I have many skill points and talents to spare. I know I could use a Manual of Focus in Awakening but it feels too much like cheating. I've maxed out Dexterity at 52 and I'm now pumping all points in Strength. That little guy is nigh unstoppable.

Assassin is definitely the way to go. It is incredibly useful. I can't wait to see how well this character is going to do in Awakening. He is going to be better than any other Rogue I've played. Strength built Rogues are quite something.

 

I'm now level 12. I have 35 in both STR and DEX. I will stop level up this character at level 16 since I never use feign death talent.

I'm using the warden commander suit as it provides an additional +10% to backstab damage and we all know how useful that can be for rogues.

I'm using Astara's Might (long sword that has +2 damage, +1 armor penatration and weakness nearby darkspawn) along with a medium shield. My damage output has not increased since my last posting because I have been putting most of the attribute points into Dex so that I could get it up to 40ish by level 16.

The only problem my PC is having is staying alive while being one of the front tanks along with Alister. I have Morrigan and Wynne clearing the way for me with their AoE spells, etc...

 

I think it's just part of being a dual wielder. You do more damage than Alistair, so enemies target you. Try drawing attention to Alistair with skills like Threaten.

 

Oh I do.

My character is not a dual wielder. He uses a sword and shield.

I wish I purchased DAO for the PC; I want to compare a Dex build compared to my Str build and the cunning build I plan to play after I complete DA Awakening with my Str build. The problem is I'm playing DAO on the PS3 and if you do not know what the issue is with the consoles than you should read one of my prior post about Bioware lack of support for PS3 and even XBox.

 

I’m about ready to wet myself. Bioware released patch 1.04 for PC yesterday and is waiting for Sony and Microsoft certification for the console patch update.

This patch fixes a bunch of issues on the PC and Consoles.

THANK YOU BIOWARE! You redeemed yourselves and have earned another $60+ from me when DA2 comes out next year.

I will continue with my dwarf commoner strength/dexterity build rogue until the patch is released. It could be 1-2 months given Sony’s strict policy and certification process, but at least I know in the near future I can start playing an elf commoner or human noble rogue dexterity/cunning build. 

 

I ended up deleting all my DAO files and saved games. I want to play the game as close to as perfect as can be, so I'm waiting until the most recent patch to be release to replay my strength rogue. In fact, I'm deleting all of the DLCs as I want to play DAO and DA Awakening without all the extra content since all I do is sell the extra items any and most of the DLC, other than Shale, don't really add any value to DAO.

 

After many attempts I'm at it again with a rogue; this time a dalish rogue who is a DEX/CUN build. I invest 2 points DEX and 1 into CUN. Once DEX reaches 52 the rest will go into Cunning. This build is going to be a Bard/Asassian/Shadow (Awakening). I plan on playing this build as I want to see what happens with romancing Morrigan as I deleted all of my previously saved games.

 

I'm still working on this character. I have been playing a lot of 2 player shooting games with friends lately. With this character I just completed Lothering and started the first part of the Redcliffe village quest.