Rules query

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I only recently got in to IWD2, after being a veteran of BG, ToB etc. IWD2 is about as 3E as BG was 2E - far less in fact. Still looks fun, though.

Could anyone help with these queries?

Does Monk unarmed strike mix with Druid shape change (IE do animal forms get the Monks attacks per round)?

Can Monk not choose Weapon Focus: Unarmed strike? Can Fighters not choose Wep Spec: unarmed strike?

Does Weapon Finesse have any effect for a high DEX Monk?


Are there no Combat Reflexes and AoOs?

Is there no advantage to using a reach weapon?

Do 2-handed weapons get 1.5x STR bonus to damage?

Does Weapon Finesse work with TWF, IE if off-hand has small blade, does the off-hand get the DEX bonus to hit while main hand gets STR bonus?

What if you use a short blade and dagger, do both attacks get the DEX bonus?

Do you get STR bonus to damage if you're using DEX bonus to hit with Weapon Finesse?


Chers,

I'm sure I'll have more later

~

 

Welcome to Sorcerers...think this may be a question for 8 or coin!

 

Coin, I'm afraid, I never looked into detail at the IWD2 specific mechanics. As far as I remember there's no specialisation feats for unarmed attacks and I haven't played with a Monk in years and don't have the game installed to check the weapon finesse thing.

Never played a Druid/Monk before either, but I must admit that does sound like an awesomely fun combination. Might have to make one in the pnp game I'm running

Sorry I can't be of more help but there are a few regulars who know the intricacies of the IWD2 game that will be along to help you in more detail.

If I don't see a response by the end of the day I'll dig out my CDs (if they're here) and give a quick run to check things.

 

Thanks for the quick response, it's quite an old game now, after all.

I can't see anything in the manual about these points and some of the feats probably don't exist. There's no Whirlwind Attack tree, for example, and all the FAQs and Guides I've looked at say Great Cleave is pointless, whereas in The Temple of Elemental Evil, which actually was a 3.5E game with cyclical combat etc, it was tremendous fun. Sure, you were only cleaving creatures that you could kill with one blow anyway, but the animation of your charactar killing 5 or 6 of the blighters in a single round was SO entertaining! Especially with a Glaive.

But I accept that IWD2 will be a vague approximation to the 3.5E SRD due to the Infinity Engine, but I'm a bit lost as to how it works. As usual, I spend a week planning the party and their level progression, but the rules are all different. My first party I made all wrong and even gave a Fighter INT 13 for Expertise as you need it for Whirlwind Attack, and only later realised that it isn't implemented. Similarly, a Monk should be considered Ambidextrous with unarmed fists so a level of Ranger shouldn't help, but a Druid/Monk with high WIS gives powerful spells and high AC. But I'm not sure about the othe aspects.

There seem to be no Monk weapons in the game and no way to boost damage or BAB to the unarmed strike, though, and no Flurry of Blows (or is it always turned on?) There's no metamagick fets, either, which is a shame.


Anyway, look forward to your input



Cheers

~

 

- As soon as monks get BAB from another class they loose their faster unarmed attack progression, so no monk attack progression for shapeshifts
- Unarmed weapon focus/specialization can't be chosen.
- Weapon finesse only affects small blades
- I never encountered Combat Reflexes or AoOs (casting or running doesn't cause them, I never tried to attack unarmed however)
- longer weapon range is beneficial (especially for sneak attackers) since you don't have to get that close
- 2-handed weapons get 1.5x STR bonus to damage
- there's no reason why weapon finesse shouldn't affect dualwielders
- strength is checked for damage even if you use weapon finesse

 

Just a small correction - IWD2 is a vague approximation of 3.0, not 3.5!

The animal forms actually overwrite the base class build, so attacks, etc. don't stack --they actually replace the PC's BAB with the animal's (I think the animal forms effectively have a "magical weapon" so to speak).

The "Ease of use" mod has a component where Weapon Finesse applies to Monk BAB (it recodes the monk fist to register as a small blade).

The best use of a reach weapon is actually for rogues. Since enemies will (generally) turn towards whoever is closest when attacking, a reach weapon can provide a bit of distance between a rogue and the enemy for multiple sneak attack attempts (e.g. the "Twelve Paces" method).

TOEE is a great tactical game. I love IWD2 also, but it's primarily a "hit 'em when you see 'em" kind of game. Don't expect a lot of great balance, but if you're willing to overlook some of the smaller issues, it's a great 3.0 game.

 

no

no

not unless you're using a small blade. Alternatively, the customdll fix can change it to finesse effect for any weapon type provided you have 2 weapon feats in it. Still won't help with unarmed, though.

Not even backstab, only the rogue's sneak attack (+1d6dmg/2lvls). Sneak attacks can be performed upon held, stunned or distracted opponents too, so it may count as an 'attack of opportunity'.

Further reach.

yes, except (cross)bows (0x STR). Slings get 1x STR though.

yes

Short swords are of the same weapon type as daggers, and small blades are finesse-able.

yes

 

Whoa! I always thought that a PURE Monk could use "Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike". Is this wrong?

 

Thanks for the help.

Studying the manual, there is no Improved Unarmed Strike (IUAS) or Weapon Focus/Specialisation for UAS, but the Monk's Unarmed Bab sort of has it built in, an IWD2 custom implementation. There's no Flurry of Blows or Greater Flurry, either, which is a shame as it was poor at first but far superior to the IWD2 thing after 8th level. It was one of the great advantages of the Monk's attack forms - 2 extra attacks per round. And no Monk weapons or dual-wielding rods and staffs with no penalty?

Is there anyone who can write a mod that gives Flurry of Blows?

I think the only thing that carries over to Wild Shape is the WIS AC bonus and any spells already cast - Barkskin etc. Some animal forms have much better damage than a Monk's fists, but Beast Claw (or whatever) overwrites the animal's attack damage, which is often better. Animal Rage would workr, but you can't shapeshift as the game treats it as a sepll.

Unfortunately, there's no Natural Spell feat, so the Druid-Monk can't cast spells while shape-shifted.

I was surprised there are no Greater Weapon Focus/Specialisation and no Epic feats, considering the game officially goes to 30th level.


Cheers





~

 

Ahhh... if only you were right about those spells.

The Druid spellbook is lackluster even with the additional spells granted by the Ease of Use mod. The default Druid shapes are comparatively weak, and as you can't cast while shifted, you lose out on what little utility your spells have.

While it's certainly doable (anything is in normal mode), Cleric(x)/Monk(1) is the powergamer's choice. Bane/Prayer/Recitation/Champion's Strength/Aid (bugged to also give +1 damage)/Holy Power/Symbol of Hopelessness as well as more Heals?

Monk multiclasses tend to be very niche. Because you lose the ability to advance in the monk class when you pick another class (except for three cases), because you lose your special unarmed attack bonus when you gain +1 BAB from another class, because attacks/rd are capped at 5 and you only get that with something that gives you +1 attack (haste, TWF, Rapid Fire, or a couple items), and because weapons simply outdamage fists, you're nearly always looking at either taking only 1 level of Monk for the Wisdom bonus to AC or going all the way to Monk(20) for the full gamut of +4 AC, improved evasion, SR, and 20/- DR. (Monk(20) is in a class of its own.)


Trying to do a real hybrid of Monk and Druid would probably net you just about the weakest character possible. Wading into in melee combat with your monk unarmed damage progression stunted by Druid levels (which is sub-par progression even when not stunted), further worsened by using the standard BAB progression (and being one behind a pure class at that due to multiclassing with a +0 class), then taking combat rounds out to cast spells that would be weak coming from a pure spellcaster, then using up one of your shapeshifts/day (the number of which would be far behind a pure-class druid) to shift into a measly Boar because you aren't even close to getting Dire Bear yet (not that Dire Bear itself is anything special -- a vanilla fighter will outperform it)?

It may have role-playing value, but from a powergaming perspective it's a completely wasted slot. I'd much rather have an 18 STR sorcerer with rapid fire and a sling or a Cleric(16)/Monk(1)/Fighter(4).

You're not going to hit 20 outside of Heart of Fury, and unless your epic feat gives you +30 generic AC, it isn't going to do much in HoF.

 

Many buff spell effects vanish when you shapeshift (but other party members can recast them, lightnings and static charges still work after the shapeshift). Your BAB carries over. The effective shapes grant an additional attack at the highest BAB, stats and weapon are reset according to your new form.

I'm not a fan of mixing druid with monk. More druidic spell power helps the whole party, better AC only this character (who looses BAB in return).

 

Actually, anyone that can combine Druid and Monk without incurring multiclassing exp penalties (i.e. humans and half-elves) will also be able to take Dreadmaster as a mix-in. Thus you can end up with rather respectable WIS score, even without using your level-up points for it.

Also, Druid(x)/Monk(1) is strictly as powerfull or better warrior than any warrior class all the way up to level 16 due to the amount of attacks per round gained via the shapeshifted forms. Getting a WIS bonus to AC will also outshine any available armors for quite a while.

 

Seems like I should come to the defense of druids again. Most of the druid's spellbook is inferior to both clerics and mages, but there are ways to improve them. But first of all, the importance and usefulness of Entangle & Barkskin should not be underestimated, especially in the early game. There are a number of useful offensive spells later too, but their relative power to mages, and to the useful buffs of clerics, wanes.

There's a monk-only pair of bracers that confers extra attack(s)/round. Items occasionally do offer bonuses to a shapeshifted monk1/druidX, but this varies on an item-to-item basis. Best to find this out yourself. Weapons are locked in shapeshift, but even they occasionally give bonuses, so consider what you equip when shapeshifting.

Mods help druids out a lot. Bonus spells from Light of Selune and Ease-of-use give some versatile arcane spells, most importantly Stoneskin. The alternative druid shapeshifts compensate for any weakness in the druid's offense. I love the Elemental Half Dragon form at lvl21; overpowered is an understatement. The high level druid outcompetes even the most powerful melee combatant imaginable - no buffs, items, or specialized build can even come close to the damage output (2d6+4 +8d6 elemental dmg[2d per element] +19 STR-bonus-dmg = 58 avg. dmg, now consider luck bonus and criticals... roughly 300-500 dmg/round).

The strategy of combining a level monk and dreadmaster to a lawful neutral human druid (better that half-elf, to obtain Concentration and 10 Spellcraft for elemental feats), is very effective, gaining major quest & monk wisdom boosts to a shapeshifter. It offers both armour and offensive spellcasting bonuses. It's better than monk1/clericX because:
1) Clerics can use heavy armour, druids can't. So druids gain more from not wearing armour and relying on monk WIS bonus. If clerics want to get equal or better protection from the WIS bonus to Armour Class, their WIS must be kept very high to keep up with heavy armour + shield.
2) Using shields also disables the monk WIS bonus to AC, meaning clerics can choose between axes, staves, dual wielding (take level ranger or feats) or other 2-handers (use without proficiency, or take feats in them). A monk1/druidX already has proficiency in 3 types of 2-handed weapons, axes, staves and polearms. Taking a level ranger for dual-wielding is still attractive later in the game, but let's not get sidetracked.
3) Most good cleric spells are buffs, meaning higher WIS doesn't improve them much, while the druid's offensive type spells benefit much more.
4) Clerics are good for combat, meaning you're better off investing in CON or STR progression instead of WIS. Druids don't suffer from this dilemma, and their STR, DEX & CON is altered by the shapeshift forms.

If you're wondering how to level druid/cleric, i go into details in my guide, iwd2_4dummies
The custom dll fix can allow monks to wear robes without losing their WIS bonuses to AC and combat, by the way.

 

I appreciate eveyone's input. It seems Druids and Monks are a little nerfed in IWD2, if not D&D3 itself (although D&D3.5 is better).

I was thinking about something with low scores for STR, DEX and CON and high scores in INT, WIS and CHA, so the charcater would be a spell casting bombardier with shape-shifted animal forms if needed for melee. And also the party diplomat. Maybe raise CON a bit for Combat Casting etc. The Dire Panther has pretty impressive attacks. But it looks like I'll have to sneak a single level in when the Druid gets Polar Bear or something.

Maybe going to Monk 10 (or whatever) for the SR and then starting to rise as Druid would be a disadvantage. It would be very difficult for a Monk with low physical stats. But IWD2 gave me a great idea for a Druidic Monk's Order for a pnp campaign - The Order of Swaying Trees, or The Order of Nature's Claw would be cool in a real AD&D campaign, where the favoured other class is Druid.

An Assimar Druid-Sorcerer also has problems when at first glance you'd expect it to be a crazy cool class. But you end up with a half strength sorcerer and a half strength Druid.

BAH! 3E nerfed multiclassing. The old 1E/2E way was far better, witrh a 20% XP penalty for double classing and a 30% XP penalty for triple classing I think they were well-balanced. You still trailed behind the single class even without the penalties and when those missing spells were things like Neutralise Poison you really moissed them. And after 9th level the single classed rocketed ahead. And splitting your hp instead of adding them all up etc. I think 3E OVER-balanced it.


Cheers

~

 

You don't have to wait until level 14 for good shapeshifts. The dire bear is more damaging than the dire panther and even the dire boar form is surprisingly powerful.

The barkskin spell alone makes it worth having a druid in the party an there are many other useful spells.

The pure class druid shines in 1:1 battles. Cast as many static charges in a row as possible, shapeshift and have your party members cast buffs and when the battle starts you'll have a ferocious animal tearing enemies apart while dishing out devastating electric charges.

If you have a high level druid outside you can even add lightnings, 1-2 highly damaging electric attacks per round will go off while you're free to do whatever you like to kill even more monsters.

In the hardest battles of the game enemies are vulnerable to electricity and with the scion of storms feat those already powerful spells become even more damaging.

 

I have it as 3d6+4 +12d6 from four elements with +22 damage from 40 STR. Damaging to be sure. But the problem is that level 21 is HoF territory, and the Elemental Half-Dragon doesn't have the AC to survive front-line action in HoF.

I have a Druid(21)/Bard(11)/Fighter(4)/Monk(1)/Paladin(1)/Rogue(1)/Wizard(1). The level of Wizard allows him to wear Mystra's Embrace, which gives 10/+2 DR which stacks with the Elemental Half-Dragon's 16 DR to Missile, Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning.
So 766HP, 26 DR, but because he doesn't get any armor bonus from items or the Deep Gnome innate, he only has 33 AC upon shift, 37 with Mage Armor.

I just loaded a savegame and sent him up to clean out the first group at the Horde Fortress. Even though half the enemies were ranged (ranged doesn't do much damage in HoF), he still came out of that battle with only 404/766 HP.
I did the same with my front-line Monk who has 55AC unhasted. He finished the battle with 391/423 HP. (somebody rolled a 20 right off the bat)

Round 2: Elemental Half-Dragon 286/766HP
Monk 413/423

And this is just a chapter 1 battle. There was nothing there that could take more than 2 hits from an elemental half-dragon. Later on enemies take longer to take down and do even more damage. You just can't afford to be getting hit by them on every roll, especially since that means taking every 20 as a crit. Just in Chapter 1 you have enemies who crit for over 130 -- that blows through DR.

 

"The custom dll fix can allow monks to wear robes without losing their WIS bonuses to AC and combat, by the way. "

And surely they can wear robes in 3E? That doesn't count as "armour", right, it's just in IWD2 they can't wear robes because someone at BioWare screwed up?

If so, then it's a legitimate mod and fixes something that was implemented wrong. I'm using it. Part of the reason some FAQs say monks are crap is because they don't get a lot of what they should.

Any chance of a mod for Flurry of Blows? +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 when IWD2 gives you something much worse

I'm not sure about Half-Dragon Wild Shapes. Do Druids get this in 3E (I only use the 3.5E SRD)? Is it an Epic Feat or something? If so, then that's OK as well as long as Fighters get Greater Specialisation etc.


Cheers
~

 

My bad, I remembered it wrong. The STR-bonus damage can even go up to +29 with Champion's Strength. That's 85 average non-critical damage per hit; now consider a lucky dragon...

Well first of all, I rarely use the Elemental Half-Dragon atall: It's gamebreakingly overpowered, and I prefer being able to cast with my druid.
I dislike high AC builds because they almost invariably require a ridiculous number of mix-in levels, maxing out at 80% XP penalty. Not only is it a character build for a singular (flawed) purpose, it also seems unrealistic and manufactured. Spell books remain very poor this way, with short-lasting buffs and weak offense.
The discussion of 72AC builds has been had many times, but I think it reached a culmination in the Ultimate Tank thread. A few comments I made on there, which seem to be relevant here:

So basically, the elemental half-dragon does encounter situations where it will have a tough time against strong enemies. But it's foolish to think that your monk won't encounter dangerous situations as well. Having 55AC reveals, that you must estimate when it's necessary to use up your precious short-lasting buff spells, to get it to 72AC to face tougher opponents.

In short, the best way to defeat opponents, is to give up on making 'damage-immune' characters, and focus instead on high damage output.
And in terms of raw damage output, NOTHING can beat the elemental half-dragon.

I loaded a save and defeated Isair and Madae in the final battle with my shapeshifted high level druid. It was ridiculous; I attacked Madae because she has the most hitpoints, but she lasted about 3 rounds in each half of the endgame. Yes, the dragon's hitpoints weren't enough to face them alone. But guess what? My clerics can cast Heal!

 

40 STR is max, so Champion's Strength does nothing.
And luck doesn't do anything impressive for him. None of the elemental damage die are affected by luck nor multiplied by crit, and it's only a x2 crit.
For sheer damage output, you start bumping into duty cycle issues with non attack actions. Take a hypothetical character who can one-hit every enemy in the game: Will doubling his damage halve the amount of time it takes to kill enemies? No. In fact, it will have no effect whatsoever. His killing speed is completely constrained by other factors.
The half-dragon is kinda big and slow. That gives him issues just getting into a position to attack. You'd never send him to the back line of the enemy forces to take out a sorcerer because he'd never get there. It takes him forever to do things like chase down archers.
And to concentrate even more damage in him makes it hurt all the worse when somebody snipes his kill.

I'd be more inclined to give any luck items to a high strength character with the Massive Halberd of Hate, Massive Greataxe of Flame (if you're lucky enough to get it), or Big Black Flying Death.

The entire universe is manufactured. HoF has significant enough changes from baseline D&D that the race/class combos that have been designed specifically to have a role under those baseline conditions just don't cut it anymore.
If HoF became the new baseline, every class would have to be reworked. That is no less manufacturing than using mix-ins and items to achieve the same balance.

And your points on defense have far more holes than defense itself. A roll of 20 WILL NOT CRIT if the enemy cannot roll a hit. There is almost no such thing as "A dangerous front line" to an Evil 72AC Deep Gnome Monk(20), unless it's your own casters doing the damage with SR bypassing spells or we're talking that ridiculous Fire Shield.
Spells run out. A sword doesn't. If you're trying to rely on 6 sorcerers spamming Wail of the Banshee to get you through the game, you're gonna suffer far more wipes than a tank build unless you play your entire game centered around abusing rest mechanics.

I'm talking HoF, and you did not defeat HoF Madae in 3 rounds with a shapeshifted druid. Pic related.

 

Cute pic, how'd you manage that? There are plenty of situations that are dangerous for your monk; almost every boss creature has a higher Attack Bonus, so 72AC is most effective against regular creatures. There are also non-boss monsters that have huge AB, like the jellies in Dragon's Eye. You're right about 40 being max, it seems, though I could've sworn I've seen 48STR on my dragon before. Frankly, I have no idea how you could even know whether elemental damage die are unaffected by luck, so please enlighten me. I had to waste a half hour of my time on your accusations, which is enough time wasted on replaying an old run, to salvage my reputation. I said already that I apologize for hurting your feelings, and criticising your super-awesome party. Please, no more smear attempts.

I describe this problem in my guide as well: Shapeshifting can neutralize spell effects. As you can see, although the Barkskin icon is active, the Armour Class is unchanged. I suspect the same has happened to Champion's, but I'm out of castings to test it.