Struggling to understand the praise

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I've recently gotten back into oldschool rpgs. It started with realizing i had purchased IWD2 quiet a whiles ago. I dug it out and spent more hours than i care to admit playing it. I must have made at least 5 full play through modes on various settings and party combination until finally beating it with a 2 man party on insane mode with tactics mod installed. My hunger was satisfied. I had a friend suggest bg2 as it was just about the best rpg/game ever made and he was quiet certain it would knock the socks off of iwd2(i realize most if not all would agree).

Regardless I'm finding the clunky interface- particularly not being able to reassign "select all" from the = key to something more comfortable like the key quiet difficult to adjust to. I am by no means a graphics *****, i personally thought iwd2 had stunning backgrounds and spell animations in an age where games like crysis and mass effect exist. BG2 graphics- especially character abjuration was painfully ugly- iwd2 just seemed so much better in this regard even though they are based on the same engine and were released at similar times. The same could be said about spell icons, spell animations, item animations. The awkward THAC0 system, soooo i want my armor class to be really really low...? The fact that my modified armor class does not actually appear anywhere no matter what armor i equip. The general dnd 2 ruleset- particularly non standardized ability score modifiers, absurd lack of multiclassing options outside of presets.

When i first started playing iwd2 again i almost gave up but after the first chapter i quickly realized i was playing perhaps the best game id ever play. Ive only spent a few hours on bg2- just to the point where i escape irenecus' dungeon and will march foward and hopefully get that same epiphany as i had found in iwd2 but i suspect the selling points of bg2 over iwd2(an actual story line, character development, freedom) are things i just don't care about in comparison to character customization, optimization, straight up hack and slash dungeon crawling, massive replay value, iwd2 so perfectly captures.

I had planned to play iwd2->bg2->oblivion->dragon age, time permitting, but it seems i might just skip the second.

 

Uhm...the character graphics on BGII and IWD2 is exactly the same. Only difference i can think of is that the Monks do kick attacks and such in BGII, where in IWD2 they just stand there and punch. Sure you set the resolotion to max on bgII?

The THAC0 can be abit confusing at first though, I agree. I don`t see the problem you mention with AC though. You can see your AC right there in the inventory screen. Trick is to get it as low as possible.

Multiclassing is alot more restricted in the 2ed rules, so you won`t get to munchkin about like in iwd2 wich uses the 2.0 rules. From a roleplaying perspective, and common sense, the multiclassing system in 2ed is actually better. Just think about it. in IWD2 your level 1 gnome wizard kills some goblins with his spells, he gains a level, and takes a Fighter level. Since he now has a fighter level, he is now experienced with ALL weapons, and ALL armour, even if he has never touched any of them. Just an example. During the 2ed era stuff like that was important.

If you like IWD2 and not BG2, you probably won`t like dragon age either, I think. Its alot more similar to BG2 than iwd2. I`d recomend Temple of Elemental Evil (need to patch it alot though).

 

I thought I was the only person in the world who preferred Icewind Dale II to Baldur's Gate II. Glad to see I am not alone.

 

the spell icon and spell animations are vastly different, in iwd2 each icon was full color portrait and really conveyed what the spell does, in bg2 their pixelated little blobs etched on a small rock. but that's forgivable.

Thanks about the tip on Armour- class, i was looking in character information which lists only the armor bonus modified by dexterity. though intuitively Armour should really get better at higher values.

This makes a lot of sense, i guess im just too much of a power gamer and spoiled after playing 3ed and using mix-in classes extensively to appreciate realism details like that.



though i am still confused about THAC0 , in my character abjuration screen i see base thaco, main hand thaco and off hand thaco, but when i actually swing a weapon it looks something like

1D20 roll + BAB = Total Attack , and that attack must exceed the target's armour class

does thaco just tell you what your 1d20 must be? if so thats kind of pointless as id much rather want to know my total BAB and it would be meaningless if the enemy had an ac != 0.

 

THACO is just the old version of BAB, but in reverse. Both are basic math, nothing but addition and subtraction.

IWD2 spell graphics are better, granted, but since it the most recent of the two games, that should go without saying. But RPing in BG2 is what makes the game, in IWD2, it's almost non-existant.

 

The story in BG2 is a thousand times better than IWD I or II. (This is not to say the environment, setting or lore is better, but I would be hard pressed to prove that the story in icewind dale rivals anything in baldur's gate.)

The problems you're having, lendial, stem from the fact that you're comparing two separate rule sets. For people who played BG first (or early PnP) low armor class is intuitively better. It is different and I love both games.

Mostly; if you only care about combat and min/maxing stats, IWD is the way to go.
If you care about the story (especially if you play BG1 first), baldur's gate clearly triumphs. It is an epic story spanning dozens on dozens of hours and three games, really developing your hero/your understanding of the story. There is tons of NPC dialogue, side quests, places to explore, world maps, etc.
I love IWD, and I'm currently playing through IWD2 myself, but I will always like BG more, for the characters and epic span of the game. (Visiting underwater cities, insane asylums, towns, other planes, hell, etc.) If you care for the story at all, I implore you to stick with BG (possibly starting with the first game), you can still use all the tactics you would use from icewind dale, and you can still min/max your hero. The only differences in combat/planning are the graphics, which are still beautifully hand-drawn backgrounds, and the rulesets used. The ruleset thing might seem big, but at the core, it isn't.

 

I'm with you guys in this! I never got into the BG games either.

 

The BG series rocks. The IWD series is boring hack n slash gash. Planescape Torment however is superior to both. That sums it up pretty well.

 

BG2 is more mainstream and has more features important for marketing than IWD2. Many players confuse them with rpg depth and call other games "hack n slash". The IWDs are harder, less mainstream and not so big budget, but they are the better rpgs.

Don't believe the myths they tell you, most selling points of bg2 are just fake elements needed for marketing and to make players not seeing the fake look down on other games.

 

Hrm, have you ever played BG1-BG2-ToB completely? There is definitely a great story there, it plays out like a fantasy book. Baldur's gate games are not sandbox games, but they definitely have freedom. You can explore, go to various areas, or get your arse kicked by tough beasties if you go the wrong way.

Freedom
IWD - Completely linear story with minimal sidequests.
BG - Ultimately linear story, but with tons of sidequests and player choice in order of completion. (After getting out of candlekeep, you can instantly go to the friendly arm inn and meet the 'friends' Gorion suggests to you, or you can go wander elsewhere, or you can heed Xzar/Monty's will and go to the mine instantly, etc., etc.) (After breaking out of prison in BG2 you have choices, go explore the world or go save you-know-who, explore the city of Amn or rush into the wilderness, possibly finding tradesmeet and so forth)

Rulsets
IWD - Newer ruleset, more mainstream and detailed.
BG - Older ruleset, more cluttered/obscure.

Dialogue/Story
IWD - No party dialogue or quests. Some early exposition, but drops into mostly combat mid-late in game, especially with IWD2.
BG - Lots of party banter/interjection (more so in BG2), party quests, party responses to actions. In BG1, early exposition, mid still has story but is up to the player how much story and how much combat they get, late the story picks back up. In BG2, the story is there throughout the whole game, even sidequests feel fleshed out (Tradesmeet is one of my favorite quests in the game, and it's not even required!).


I could go on, but I'll spare you. If you really hate the NPCs in BG for some reason, and don't want to hear them talk, you can always create a party of 6 on your own and play with them. As a lover of both IWD and BG, I don't see how anyone can say IWD has more story or freedom than BG.

But more on topic, if you don't like BG/BG2 I'd say you'd like Oblivion more than Dragon Age, lendial. It has more combat, less story.

 

I have managed to replay IWD2 many more times than either BG game. BG in particular is very annoying in having to wander aimlessly all over the screen all the time. BG2 is a bit better, but still, its' pretty hard to experience all of that game without lots of "prior knowledge" about how to find the special katana and things like that.

 

I've played through the whole BG series even before ever playing the IWD games. I even know which rulesets the 4 games you mentioned use. IWD uses the same ruleset as BG, rangers getting an extra attack in IWD if they don't wear a shield to simulate dualwielding is the only real difference.

I'll stick to comparing BG2 to IWD2 like it was done by the thread starter and in my post. Adding two other games obviously confused you.


Story:
IWD2: rather traditional "party of heroes save the world"
BG2: pseudo religious depth faking nonsense revolving around one "special" character

Dialogue:
IWD2: Not much dialogue after the prologue (game is more combat centered), but many hidden dialogue options depending on character race, gender and stats
BG2: character race, gender and stats do hardly make any difference stats of people to talk to and more unimportant blabla and running through a town talking to all of them to avoid missing something important instead of action isn't great for everyone, only a few NPCs to choose from, limited even more by alignment, unrealistic, sometimes entertaining and sometimes annoying party banter and behaviour, you can cheat or mod to get more choices, but I'm comparing the games as they are

Rulesets:
BG2: uses the outdated AD&D rules which were not made or balanced for computer rpgs or high level characters, even Diablo offered more freedom in developing a character and other games like Might and Magic 6 offered far more, but AD&D rules were important for marketing (mainstream), as was adding kits to fake having some kind of 3E rules.
IWD2: Uses 3E rules which were less popular but aren't needlessly complicated and offer far more freedom for character development.

Freedom:
BG2: You have the freedom to take the story seriously, miss half the game and face unbalanced combat with wimpy characters.
You also have the freedom to do what the developers want you to or to get punished hard.
IWD2: The order in which you have to visit the areas is quite linear, but there are often many different ways to solve problems.

 

Truth be told Icewind Dale is hardly an rpg at all, in my opinion. The only rp about it is that you get to create characters, how they kills stuff, equip them, and ....thats it. Its more of a tactical action game, than roleplaying, i think. That doesn`t mean its not a fun game though.

PS: if you start BG in multiplayer, you can create 6 characters like in IWD, and control all of them by yourself. That way it plays like icewind dale, but with zero party banter and such.

 

If I had just played the bg series first things would have been very different. The best aspects of iwd2 in comparison to bg2 were the spell icons and spell animations ( yes i know this sounds completely vain if not absurd). Secondly spell selection, iwd had quiet a bit more even though it didnt have uber-nukes like timestop/IA. Thirdly, the dnd3 system opened up vastly more builds/options and in effect, replay value.As a caveat it overpowers dedicated spell casters (sorcerers and clerics) and makes the high BAB classes beyond worthless (fighter, barbarian,monk,ranger,rogue etc) due to kit removal, less traps, and general increased difficulty of the game- but it wasn't like i was going to play a right click and watch pc anyways.
lastly, no need to spend 10 minutes rolling for stats- god forbid if you were a meele class trying to get 18/00. I'm no stranger to reloading, I did it until i found 13 tymora loops in iwd2 before the end of normal mode but even those odds were vastly better than trying to get 18/00 and 85 total stat points for marginal benefits.

i guess it would be backwards of me to seek power gamy- tactical combat over story and freedom in a dnd based game but i must have played through iwd2(normal mode) a full five times and only stopped because i had beaten it on the most difficult set up possible-however, i cant bring myself finish much less replay bg2. the friend of mine that recommended me to bg2 will give me a face palm of unimaginable magnitude, but alas.

I'm going to spend the remaining few days of my break and see how far i can get into oblivion(im stuck trying to create a non horse-faced PC) and hopefully after that dragon age. bg2 will remained installed when ever i man up and decide to finish it

 

IMO, with the 'hack & slash' emphasis IWD/IWD 2 is more mainstream, in the sense that it is more 'Diablo-ish', with tactical game play thanks to six player party and isometric perspective. That makes for a very attractive game. The setting up in the north adds to that, as the developers have, in particular in the first part, succeeded in generating a nice atmosphere (better IMO than in the BG series). As a result I enjoyed IWD series very much.

Still, I played BG/BG2 by far more often, since there was so much more opportunity to do stuff. BG/BG2 has more depth.

 

Have you played IWD1 yet? Perhpas as a link between the two points you'll be able to enjoy the BG series more.

Personally I enjoy both games for very different reasons, IWD I find I concentrate more because I tend to still RP it, albeit most conversations are purely imagined, whilst in the BG games I find I am more relaxed and can glide through it in a day or so if I am desiring a break.

 

Totally off-topic, but:

WTF? In a day or so? Seriously?? I don't think I've been able to finish SOA in less than a couple of months. Granted, my playing time is limited, but even if I were to add up all the hours, it would certainly be more than 24 (probably at least double that, depending on how many quests I do).

If you're doing it in a day (and presumably not the full 24 hours), are you doing some sort of speed run? Or am I an even slower player than I thought?

 

I've completed From Candlekeep to the Ascension in 48 hours before, wasn't specifically a speed run, but was when I knew the dialogues inside and out and could read a lot faster. Just kinda went for it one weekend while was home alone.

Aside from that I can play one of the games to completion over a weekend and not miss any relevant quests (I don't do multiple strongholds or quests against alignment)

I usually take my time, and take a couple of weeks though. Especially if I'm taking notes.

 

I dont enjoy any of the party members in BG2. In fact, I havent played with any of them in years. Whenever I play through the game, I prefer to create my own party from scratch.

Even so, the problem with BG2 is that its outdated ruleset is just not very flexible. There are only so many class combinations you can create, made worse by the fact that a lot of classes have race restrictions, and only certain dual/multi class combinations are possible (only the most basic).

Its still a great game, for me the greatest draw is always the setting, the different locations you travel to, Irenicus (best villain ever) and any fight involving Dragons. That music sends shivers down my spine every time - when you hear it, you know that you are in for a big fight.

IWD2 is a lot more streamlined and offers much greater choice for strategic and tactical gameplay because of the sheer number of options available to you in terms of characters.