Can you boost INT with an item for Expertise?

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Hi guys There's better games out, so I'm coming back to IWD2 for a little while again

So the question is, can I have, say, 9 starting INT, and later equip the Xvimian Fang of Despair to get 13 and get expertise then? (Or 10 and use the Iron Banded staff, available at the start of HOF).

I'm 90% sure the answer is no, but I also haven't played IWD2 in awhile, so maybe I forgot.


In case you're curious, the alpha version of my party is:

Monk 1/Rogue 1/Dreadmaster 28 <- 72 AC and max DC disables
Fighter 4/Druid 4/SorcORWiz 22 <- Mad DPS and nukes

 

Not as far as I know, I am pretty sure that feat requirements check your base ability, not the buffed ability.

Similarly, you can't take Power Attack unless your base strength is 13 or higher.

What races are your characters?

You can test it though, to make sure. Create a character with 9 int, use the console to create the item, and equip it. Then set his experience high enough for him to level up, and see whether you can select expertise. My guess would be no, but test anyway.

 

A character with 8 levels mixed in will lag behind in levels a lot. It's hardly a DPS juggernaut. More like its retarded cousin. Keep the amount of levels mixed in low, to reduce the impact on your main caster class's levels/spell damage. Too many levels also holds a character back further and further in leveling speed. 4 is stretching it. 8 is unfit to go to Heart of Fury mode.

... UNLESS you mean to add most of the 8 mix in levels at the end. Though I'd still favour more caster levels. I'd offer an alternative, but those 3 classes combined with one another have little benefit, so I wouldn't know what to advise.

 

Meh, it depends on what kind of DPS you are talking about. Why the druid levels though? Caster DC is not based on level, so more caster levels will only bring more spells per day.

 

Also due to the incomplete rules for 3e that IWD2 uses it does not use maximum of 4 attacks from BAB at level 20 and it still has a limit of attacks from BAB and two weapon fighting (I think it may be 5). Due to this long term there really is no reason to multiclass a medium BAB class into a warrior unless you want some specific ability (such as weapon specialization though honestly that is not worth the 4 levels of fighter that you pick up to get it).

Due to this I actually prefer multiclassing to get other powerful abilities such as evasion which I find useful at all times and that you won't get without multiclassing your caster.

 

After a little test, it appears that one must be legitimately smart enough for Expertise. No reliance on magical trinkets allowed.

Thought so, now we know ^.^



Really awkward requirement/feat. Guess it's pretty much just there for arcane tanks. Hate putting 10 extra stat points in INT SOLELY for that feat on a WIS monk/dreadmaster tank. Feels inefficient.


Regarding my class choices - I'll get back to you guys on that. I haven't done a ton of planning yet. I just know my goal is to duo through HOF mode with two casters, one arcane and one divine. Originally my goal was to have both hit 72 AC, but IF that's even possible, it would make the early game extremely rough, because you'd have basically no sustained melee damage.

Glad to see this community still exists!

 

I always thought the idea was to give a reason to discourage the stereotypical "dumb fighter" that pervaded P&P in 1st and 2nd editions of AD&D. There really wasn't much if any benefit to INT for a fighter.
Granted, you were supposed to roleplay him being stupid if he had an INT of say 5 or 6, but lots of players failed to do that. They'd have a fighter with an INT of 5 and a WIS of 7 making tactically brilliant decisions.


Otherwise trading the attack bonus for defense seemed more of a DEX thing than an INT.

 

It is really awkward, sadly it is a good way to up AC. You have these two conflicting stats - wisdom and intelligence - and few characters need both. As you say, then your physical stats suffer.

My current decoy (just started last night actually) is this:
LG Male Drow Paladin 1/Rogue 2/Transmuter X
With
Str 5
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 3
Chr 20

He is the party's diplomat, decoy and thief. All stat points will go into dexterity, and he won't use any of those potions. A 20 intelligence should hopefully be enough for all of the skills this character needs to have, which unfortunately is quite a lot. But at least with his high charisma (which can be further buffed), he receives quite a bonus to any dialog skills.

Projected AC for end of HoF:
Base 10
Chain of Drakkas Fury 8
Shield 4
Ghost Armor 5
Dodge 1
Expertise 5
Haste 4
Barkskin 5
Equipment 11
Dexterity 11 (wihtout Tensers Transformation)
Total: 64, 69-72 with tensers active

A deep gnome could reach higher AC easily, but he would not be as good in terms of skills. 18 intelligence and 14 charisma at character creation would be a problem. He will need a strength buff in order to able to equip the stuff he needs, but that is fine. They last a long time. I have given him the strong back feat which should help.

Having the decoy, diplomat and thief taken care of, means that nobody else needs high intelligence. As a result, the other 5 characters are physical powerhouses. I'm going to up the wisdom on my druid and my cleric (who are both Banites) as an insurance policy, so that I have two other potential decoys.

 

Actually int was better for the 2e fighter than the 3e fighter. A 3e fighter may want 13 int for combat expertise (though not for the feat itself it sucks due to AC sucking at mid levels on up without serious investment of money. It is needed as a prerequisite for a couple of decent feats though they tend to be limited and if you use the several different ways to grab it without the int then you were better off) but that was really all you got for it.

2e fighters receive bonus weapon proficiencies for high int. This is actually really useful as you can make yourself skilled in many weapons, get a bunch of powerful weapon styles going, get your weapon specialization started, and possibly grab a good couple combat related NWP as well. In the end these bonuses are better than a high str score unless you can roll an 18/XX. Anything less than that and you can likely do more with a high int score and you will be the cooler fighter to boot. Also note that str replacing items and spells in AD&D are among the more common of their type as compared to other stats so once you find those gauntlets of ogre power or belt of giant str you are totally in business for the late game (and the high str character will want those items too so you really lose nothing).

High stats in your attack stat are more important in 3e due to how the extra attacks work. Unlike in 2e your characters attack bonus goes down per attack in 3e so while those bonuses are superfluous for the first attack your later attacks will need them to hit (unfortunately most monsters do not have this problem so they hit you just fine with their attacks due to how natural weapons work in 3e). So in 2e you can afford to play a low str high int fighter but that is MUCH harder in 3e to play a low attack score fighter with high int.

 

Ok, I've got the concept finished for my duo. Two guys, who can both hit 72 AC by late game HOF mode without any exploits, and only using items attainable with one normal and one HOF playthrough. A divine and arcane caster, both will get 9th level spells.

Deep Gnome - Monk 1/Rogue 1/Dreadmaster 28 (Will get 20% XP penalty at some point)

Drow - Fighter 4/Druid 4/Rogue 4/Wizard 18 (No XP penalty)

I'll make a new thread soon™ Detailing the specifics, such as how they both get to 72 AC (and can actually do so with usable duration spells), the damage output from the wizard, and feat/level plans.





Side note - Has anyone made a mod that allows you to get the Massive Greataxe of Flame +5 yet? Or do I have to console it in?

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If you wanted, you could also try stuffing 11 bard levels in there. You get to use the high CHA, and I believe you can sing with Tenser's active. Of course that's only really a valid option if you have another dedicated arcane caster, as you'd only be able to get to level 16 as a Transmuter, meaning no 9th level spells.

 

What AC bonus does barkskin cast by a 4th level druid give?

Make the drow a specialist wizard of some kind for a bonus spell slot in every level - there is literally no downside, as your druid levels will allow you to learn spells of any level. Interested to see further specifics.

Regarding the Massive Greataxe of Flame +5, I remember there was a thread on these forums where someone did some digging into how drops are calculated, and as near as they could tell, it will never drop. The treasure class to which it belongs is never used apparently.

I'm thinking about making a mod for HoF that will alter the drops a bit to make the game a bit more interesting. Like, from what I can remember of HoF, your random drops in the early game are still +1 and +2 weaponry. Say in Chapters 1 and 2. Thinking of altering the drop tables so that +2 weapons drop in the Prologue (if any), +3 weapons can drop in Chapters 1 and 2, and +4 weapons can drop maybe until Chult or the Dragons Eye, from where +5 weapons can drop.

Sure, it may make it easier, but I actually want to make it more interesting. It gets boring when you are running around in Chapter 2 HoF with +5 weapons, and you know that any random weapon drop will be a +2 maximum. So you know you can immediately discard it, unless it is an HoF upgraded item.

EDIT: Regarding bard levels...

I was tempted, if only because some of the bard weapons you can carry like shields have some interesting properties. But the problem is that bards must be of non lawful alignment, which means that this character would not be able to be a monk or a paladin. The reason he is a paladin is that he can benefit from the +1 to strength and wisdom, and also means that he can add his charisma modifier to his saving throws. Since he is primarily a defensive character, I want his saving throws and AC as high as possible. Adding bard levels contradicts that.

Besides which, adding more than 1 or 2 bard levels would make it impossible to do without experience penalties. I never use characters that have experience penalties.

I do also have 2 sorcerers in the party, each with 18 strength, 18 dex, 16 con, 18 charisma. Each will also have 1 paladin level and 1 monk level.

 

the DG will have 40% XP penalty as soon as he has 3 classes and dreadmaster is more then 1 ahead of the others. I would drop the rogue level.

I would try to minimize the mixins for the wizard. If you really want 4 fighter levels for WS (I don't think it's worth it) you can still reduce druid and rogue to L3 without losing anything important. But you gain lots of spell power for your wizard.
I think the 2nd rogue level is good for evasion and to train some more skills as class skills. I don't think the low level druid brings anything worthwhile. I would use just one warrior level for martial weapons. So e.g. Pala1/Rogue2/WizX.

 

I would agree lefuet

However, since Barkskin is such an important spell, I would go for Rogue 3/Druid 4. You might have to invest a feat or two into a martial weapon, but you get so many by the end of the game that this is not really a problem. Just put one point into halberds, for instance.

You could also go for Dreadmaster of Bane 3/Rogue 3/Druid 4/Wizard X. That gets you bonus wisdom from being a dreadmaster, barkskin, rogue skills, and 2 more casting levels for your wizard.

 

What is the reason for Druid 4. Just the AC +3?

"Barkskin
Casting time: 5
Duration: 10 rounds/level
Affects: 1 creature
Effect: gives +3 bonus to AC at 3rd level, +4 at 6th level and +5 at
12th level."

 

Regarding the XP penalty for my Rogue 1/Monk 1/Dreadmaster 28,

I thought the way XP penalties worked was you could have multiple Levels that were all different from your main class, and by hit by a 20% XP penalty as long as they were all within 1 of each other. Basically, I had thought that you could have limitless mix ins, as long as you were all close in level.

After you posted that, I read the manual and confirmed in game that you're right. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, finding those things out later, when you think you've got everything planned out, is annoying >.<

I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how to get him to 72 AC without using Swing from the Masts, and I couldn't think up a way until I realized that I had the Flame Dance Talisman unused... No class requirement on that, so I can substitute that for Swing from the Masts and drop the Rogue level! Now I'm down to a 20% penalty, which I'm going to have to deal with.

In case you're wondering why I'm talking about normal mode items like Swing from the Masts and Flame Dance Talisman, I'm both of the HOF equivalents on my other character.

Getting 72 AC for both of a duo is pretty tough, it would be a lot easier with 11 levels of bard, but with just two characters that are supposed to be full fledged casters, AND have one of them capable of lots of melee damage, there just isn't room. I can fit in 4 levels of druid, as that gives you 2 castings of barkskin with a 40 round duration, and +3 bonus. A more efficient investment than putting 8 additional levels of bard in for the full +5 boost.

I read all the other comments to, I'll address them

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I just remembered that the stat bonuses from Tenser's stack with other spells that boost stats, like Cat's Grace! This has fairly big implications...

 

Yes, Tenser's transformation is great, especially when combined with Expertise. You get +4 to generic AC from Tensers, plus an AC boost of 2-4 from your dexterity boost.

You could also make a 15 monk/15 dreadmaster Deep Gnome. That should have good AC. Lacking on the spellcasting side though.

EDIT: @lefuet

Barkskin is one of the few stackable sources of AC increases. Others are expertise, the dodge feat, the deep gnome's +4AC bonus and haste.