Pissed at Propaganda

Yikes.

Masks are not some kind of panacea. Studies vary about how effective they are, but all are fairly low, though in most cases it's better than nothing. N95 masks with the exhalation valves are great at protecting the wearer when fitted properly, but do nothing to protect others (which is what most people are talking about when talking about how bad it is not to wear a mask). The fleece gaiters that a lot of people wear actually produced more droplets when the wearers exhaled.

So a decision not to wear a mask is not dangerous. If you are worried about a bare face, well, then stay a safe distance from them.

I don't agree with the people who refuse to wear a mask inside a place where the owner mandates it. If you don't like it, don't go in.

I'm not aware of dangerous treatments Trump is accepting or encouraging. But regardless, if you listen to some buffoon on the internets for your health advice you have only yourself to blame for any negative consequences.

That doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory whether Trump is a genius or not.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Censorship is never necessary. Counter misinformation with correct information.

 

We've got plenty of those kooks here too. But then again, there are plenty of people around who believe that the Earth is flat and vaccines cause autism, so that's not really surprising. Every time I open Facebook and start reading comments on anything topical, there'll be plenty of comments from those types of idiots who are convinced that covid-19 doesn't exist and that they're the clever ones whereas everyone else has been fooled by the global conspiracy.

Masks make a big difference, I'm not sure what studies you're referring to, but here in Europe (and you'll likely admit that in most places we're handling covid-19 much better than the US), we're being made aware of this often:











Forbes article some of the images above are from, the others have been released by various ministries of health and medical institutions. A couple relevant quotes from the article:

I have also not heard of a single doctor anywhere in Europe claiming that more droplets could pass through any kind of face covering than without it. The key to wearing non-N95 masks is that everyone has to do it for it to be effective, however, otherwise you can only protect yourself with a N95 or equivalent. There's a ridiculous amount of misinformation and "facts" posted about the usage of masks online by anti-maskers, however, so you're far more likely to have encountered "promo material" about the "dangers" of wearing masks by anti-maskers than solid advice from medical professionals.

To conclude, everyone, please wear a mask and don't look for excuses not to. Another hidden function that the masks provide is heightened awareness of the need for social distancing, which we often forget otherwise and that further limits our chances of infection. Wearing a mask during the epidemic protects yourself as well as those around you.

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Medical grade masks worn properly are most effective, but the type of mask and how they are used and washed makes a big difference. I don't know how it is in Europe, but here in the United States due to the early dearth of disposable medical masks a whole mask economy has emerged selling all kinds of cloth masks that have disclaimers saying something to the effect that they were not made to prevent disease. And these are the things many if not most people are wearing here in the United States based on the pictures I see around the country.

Here is the study showing that fleece neck gaiters produce 110% of the droplets wearing nothing produces (along with the ratings of many other types of masks). Basically, the fleece breaks up the larger droplets that go through it into multiple smaller ones.

Here is a study about how cloth masks are less effective.

 

So what if he has used an "unproven" treatment? Hydroxychloroquine is not dangerous; it has been in use and safe for 60 years. Do you think Trump self-prescribed hydroxychloroquine? Of course not, his doctor prescribed it. There are thousands of doctors that have treated many thousands of patients both prophylactically and early in the COVID-19 progression with great success.

 

*Sigh* Where did he suggest you inject bleach? I think you are deafened by your dislike for Trump that you hear things that are not said. He was talking about research into using ultraviolet light to kill the coronavirus, including some way to get it inside the body. And then he mentioned the "disinfectant" and asked the question "is there a way we could do something like that...by injection...inside...or...?" And then commented "...it would be interesting to check that. So you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting..."

So, again, not suggesting anyone try it on their own, but seemingly asking about research and stipulating medical doctors would be doing it.

 

Most people here wear washable multilayer cloth masks sown to the specifications recommended by the health ministry and/or disposable 3-layer surgical masks. None of these are anywhere near grade FFP2/N95, of course. The only thing that they work as is first level of protection against spreading large amounts of potentially infected droplets around. But as long as everyone wears them, at least in public places, they are effective in curbing the spread of the virus. I assume the US disclaimers are there so that people couldn't sue the manufacturers for contracting and/or spreading covid-19 wearing them. The medical grades of the masks are well known and such masks certainly don't offer much protection when only the healthy person wears them; they are primarily a means to stopping the infected people from spreading it further.

Interesting regarding the neck fleece masks; very few people here use them. Bandanas are somewhat in use only by various young(er) protesters as well.

Regarding your second link, less effective in what sense, compared to N95s? That goes without saying. But from the abstract:

Emphasis mine, essentially the same as I was saying above.

 

My wife has made literally hundreds of cotton-cloth masks. They are a fine first line of defense for us and others. The point is that they limit the droplets WE release. If everyone were to wear a similar mask, it would be highly beneficial. The fake fabrics are a problem and should not be used because, as BTA has noted, they actually make things worse.

However, the idea that some masks are not as effective as others and therefore some people have decided that means that they don't need a mask at all is not only stupid, it's dangerous. If everyone just wore a cloth mask (i.e., if the federal government had made consistent and scientific messaging from day 1), then there is no doubt that our dead would be less than 180,000 and our curve would look more like Europe than Brazil. But there are tons of people who assert their rights to the exclusion of their responsibilities to others and, IMO, are just flat out morons.

My brother in law is one of them. That's why he is not invited to anything in my family and I have not seen him in person in 6 months.

This is not a partisan issue. It is science coupled with respecting the rights of others, not just yourself.

 

I have no idea as I have no context since it was not in the video you presented. But again, I don't see how it matters since he most certainly did not suggest anyone do anything without consulting a doctor.

I don't disagree (assuming they are effective masks ); I said masks are not a panacea. The study of the Roosevelt showed that infection rates for mask wearers was still 55.8%. Not all that effective. Better than nothing certainly (with infection rates of 80.8%).

I a bit torn on the issue because of the added complexities due to the wide range in infection fatality rates by age group and it's not a particularly deadly virus. Humans have been plagued by disease since there were Humans. If you're under 49, you're not likely to die from COVID-19 if you catch it (5-9, 99.9984% live; 10-19, 99.99968% live; 20-49, 99.9908% live). Even 50-64 year olds do not have a high IFR (99.86% live). It is the people older than 65 that are most vulnerable (94.4% live), so it seems reasonable to me to have those vulnerable groups protect themselves (or be protected) and let the virus burn through the rest of the population (not that I'm necessarily a proponent of that). The original plan was to "flatten the curve" just so the hospitals didn't get overwhelmed; we are far from that now with widespread consequences to people's lives and livelihoods.

The flu as I understand it has a higher IFR for age groups under 49 even with the vaccines, yet nobody thought it was a good idea for everybody to wear masks for the flu; it was just a natural cause of death that had to be accepted every year. So, I'm torn about the response to COVID-19 vs. all previous diseases and I don't think I would call people morons because they choose not to wear a mask. I agree it's not a whole lot to ask for people to wear a mask, but is that the best strategy? The less people that catch it and recover from it, the more likely you'll have another outbreak. I don't know... it's not my field of expertise

 

I get what you're trying to say, but what do you think is the percentage of people in the US, including older adults who are high-risk simply due to their age, who could, in the most optimistic scenario where covid-19 does not leave them with lasting consequences, survive infection unaffected due to not having any of the pre-existing medical conditions such a high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, asthma, obesity, smoking addiction etc.?

I've seen a number of interviews with covid-19 survivors here who were under 40 but had to go through weeks, some even months of hospital treatment before they recovered enough that they could return home. How many people in the US have medical insurance that would cover hospital treatment like that without pushing them into life-long debt that they could never repay? Would treatment even be available to them at all?

Anti-maskers here are protesting alongside anti-5Gers, anti-vaxxers and flath-Earthers, usually for more or less the same reasons, so they're happy to all join the same protests. And I'm not trying to be insulting here at all, simply stating my observations.

Masks are far from perfect, I agree, but they're the best that we've got so far. Wearing them is really such a small price to pay for any benefit that they provide that from a rational standpoint I simply can't understand any kind of opposition to them.

 

I tend to agree that those who are anti-mask wearing are the fringe tinfoil hat kind of people, especially those who refuse to wear one in stores that mandate it and get pissed and violent when the staff asks them to either wear a mask or leave. I cringe at these stories of solo people being confronted in a store because again I'm not sure what's best: Confronting the person just makes it worse because now they're yelling at the top of their lungs and throwing a fit. It would probably have been better to let them get their stuff and go without them opening their mouth

Unfortunately mask wearing in the United States has like so many other things become some kind of political statement.

 

Well, that's hardly surprising given Trump's own opposition to wearing them. People who can't or aren't willing to think for themselves subscribe to the sentiment of their (political) leaders. I wonder what would happen if Trump got infected and died from covid-19?