Party composition and general questions threade no. 1239102394

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Hello,

I just completed my IWD playthrough and am about to start IWD 2. I am familiar with the 2nd edition rules of the game and am just read the manual to get to know the 3rd edition rules as well. Cool stuff but also vastly different on how to build characters than in the previous game. Some questions remain even after reading the manual and playing for a little bit.

I know that because of how leveling is handled that multi-classing is very expensive and mostly done to pick a few levels of another class for mostly starter feats and abilities (like picking one level Ranger if you want to create a dual wielding character). So I wanted to continue with basically the same party I had in the previous game, but this does not work out anymore.

This is what I came up with so far. Keep in mind that I do not want to min-max, so lowering one stat below the average 10 should only be done if it feels right. I do not care about Heart Of Fury right now, because this is my first playthrough. This also means that I only will reach around 15 character levels each. I enabled gaining max HP on level up so I guess that Constitution should not be that big of a deal.
The skills and feats I listed is basically what I focus and aim for with the character, not necessarily what I can pick at first level.

Class: Aasimar Paladin of Helm X / Fighter 4
Attributes: 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha
Skills: Diplomacy
Feats: Martial Weapon: Longsword (3), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical

Class: Aasimar Battleguard of Tempus
Attributes: 16 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 12 Cha
Skills: Concentration
Feats: Combat Casting, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical

Class: Human Rogue X / Ranger 1
Attributes: 10 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha
Skills: Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, Search
Feats: Dash, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind

Class: Human Druid / Monk 1
Attributes: 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 18 Wis, 8 Cha
Skills: Spellcraft
Feats: Spell Focus: Transmutation, Scion of Storms

Class Human Bard
Attributes: 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
Skills: Use Magic Device
Feats: Lingering Song, Spell Focus: Enchantment

Class Halfling Wizard
Attributes: 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha
Skills: Concentration, Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft
Feats: Spell Focus: Evocation, Spirit of Flame

What do you think of that group? Is there anything missing or would you focus on other feats and skills?

Regarding the Wizard, I know that Sorcerers seem to be more powerful but I wanted to go with wizards in order to try out as many spells as possible for my first playthrough.
And many say that a pure Rogue is not necessary but I really like to have a scout in my team that can disable traps and open locks. The thought of just activating traps and bashing doors and chests kinda sucks :/

I also have more general questions:

When creating a character is it really important to raise the attibute you need to cast spells (Int, Wis, Cha) higher than 16? You do get additional attributes on level up and earlier in the game you cannot access higher level spells anyway, no matter the attribute value. Raising it from 16 to 18 only gives you one additional level 4 spell, which is not accessible in the beginning anyway. For example the Wizard can cast the first level 4 spell at level 7. But at level 8 you already gained two additional points to increase Int to 18 for the level 4 bonus spells.

How are skill points on level up calculated? I know that you get the Int bonus as skill points and humans get one additiona skill point per level. But the base skill points seem to vary accross races or classes. I could not find a table for that.

I was thinking about making a character I always use for conversations and shopping. I would focus on Charisma, the skills Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate and take the feat Mercantile Background. There is only the rogue though that has the class skills Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate and I would need the skills points for his other skills as well. He has already the role of the scout in my party.
Perhaps the Bard could take this role as Charisma is important for this class and Bluff and Diplomacy are class skills. I just need to invest double the points for Intimidate. Do you have other suggestions on building such a character?

This brings me the question on how many skill points do I need in a skill in order for it to be effective? For example with the 2nd edition rules you could raise Open Locks above 100, but it would not have any effect at all. I probably is different for every skill but I am mostly interested in the thieving (Open Locks, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device) and conversational (Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy) skills.
Or is it the rule to always keep skills you are focusing on maxed in order for them to be effective?

Skill values are a little confusing for me to be honest. I read that many players combine Wizard and Rogue, but only take 3 rogue levels. This would mean that when you level as Wizard you would have to invest double the points in thieving skills. Is this useful at all? How much do you need? Same question for conversational skills.

Should I take another Cleric instead of the Druid? A Lawful Neutral Monk 1 / Druid X feels kind of strange to me and also I read that shape shifting is not useful at all and for me that is what Druids are about. Perhaps I go without the Monk levels. Is a pure caster Druid effective?. Especially for the first playthrough I do not really want to play without a druid because I want to see all the spells and Clerics can't access Druid spells.
A cleric of Illmater seems to be gaining some really nice domain spells though, so I am really undecided.

Should I take this party for another playthrough in Heart of Fury mode, would I get upgraded or different items or would it be all the same again? Are there random items like in the first IWD?

That's it, thanks for your help

 

If you don't care much about min maxing, your group should be fine. If you have anyone who is an archer, I find getting Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are good. They make firing into melee better. Is your ranger/rogue going to be an archer or melee? I find it generally easier just to stick with one and not try to do both. If he's going to be melee, then forget about rapid shot and get weapon focus instead. If he is going to be more ranged, then just do rapid shot/point blank shot and precise shot.

For your rogue, you likely would want to start as a rogue, then take the one level of ranger. That way you get more skill points.

Why take only 1 level of Monk for your Monk/Druid? Monks don't give you much for taking only one level other than better saves. As a Druid, you're going to be wearing armour which negates the monk's AC bonuses.

There's not a lot of difference between a wizard and a sorcerer in terms of power. Both will do fine. If you want the versatility, the wizard has it.

The highest level spell you can cast is your primary stat - 10. So with 16, you can only cast level 6 spells at the most. Good to raise it to 19 minimum for primary casters to cast all spells. Also, it affects how hard it is to save versus your spells. I usually always increase my primary stat on all my main casters. Unless you can already cast spells at that level, you don't get the bonus spells.

Different classes get different skill points per level. At level 1, you get 4 times that amount. Rogues get the most (8). Then I think it's rangers and barbarians (4). Most others get (2). That's what I can remember. Then it's modified by your Int modifier. If you have 14 Int, you get +2 skill points per level. For class skills, it costs 1 skill point for 1 rank. For non-class skills, it is 2 skill points for 1 rank. Cost is based on the class you levelled up.

If you are into the RP aspect, do have characters with high skills in the conversational skills like Bluff and Diplomacy. You also have to make sure these characters talk to the NPC's. Sometimes, an NPC approaches the group from the side and you may not get a chance to move your "speaker" to talk to him. The bard is a good candidate for the speaker of the party as he has a good amount of skill points to spend on these skills.

Generally, in order to pass any skill test, your skill (rank + ability modifier) must be higher than a certain number. I don't know exactly what the cap is that you need to ensure you open every lock, disable every trap etc. You'll have to consult guides for that.

Wizards have high Int, so they get bonus skill points each level due to high Int. I would surmise that those who do this already know what to min/max and know exactly how many skill points they need for all the skills to be successful at everything. This is related to the previous question. You'll have to consult guides to know how many skill points in each skill you need at most and not have to worry about putting any more into them. Also, players playing Wizard/Rogues do this to get weapon proficiencies as well as skill points to qualify for certain feats. It's part of the min/maxing.

 

If you want to try out a druid and their spells, just stick to the druid. I recommend a straight druid or take one level of Fighter instead. I never tried the shape shifting before personally. The one level of monk seems wasted to me. I feel you either go deep into the monk or not at all. I was playing a ranger 1/monk x in one of my parties. I built him to be super defensive. Made him a deep gnome. It takes a while and getting a few levels allows him to take a hit. Otherwise, he doesn't get hit much at all.

 

I agree about keeping the druid class pure. You don't really get enough benefit from one monk level to be worth being a level behind in spells, unless it's a 21st level mix-in. A lot of mix-ins become useful after level 20 because you stop progressing in class skills in most classes. Monks in particular have only empty levels after 20, so you really should mix in some rogue levels (if you took stealth skills as it synergies well, but even if you didn't you can play catch-up by sinking all your new skill points into Hide and Move Silently for a few levels) or some other class. Fighters, rangers, rogues, clerics, and druids all synergize well, and wizard or sorcerer can work well too (mage armor, blur and mirror image.)

Also for the rogue/ranger, you don't need that many rogue levels, but there are a few feats only available to level 10 rogues. If you plan to take any of those feats, I'd recommend mixing in more ranger levels once you get 9 levels of Rogue and only take the 10th level when you are eligible for a feat, and then continue to only take range levels unless you are eligible to get a feat.
Alternately, you can just level ranger and rogue equally. The Ranger gets the stealth feats Hide and Move Silently, along with Spot, so you only need to use those later rogue levels for things the Ranger can't.

Have your Bard specialize in the talking feats and pick pockets so your rogue can concentrate on handling traps and sneak attacks. Especially since the Ranger can take the stealth skills.

 

I already have two melee characters so I thought that I will focus on ranged attacks. On second thought that probably makes the ranger levels unnecessary, aside from the better BAB rangers have. Do sneak attacks work with a ranged weapon too?

I thought that perhaps the Wisdom bonus also applies when I am shape shifted, regardless if I am wearing armor in my human form. Because technically you lose your armor the moment you shape shift, right? The +4 AC from Wisdom when shape shifted would justify that one Monk level? Does it work like that, or do I have to unequip any armor in my human form for the Wisdom bonus to apply when shape-shifted?

Yes, I know that but usually you get enough additional stat points to raise your primary stat the moment higher level spells are accessible to you. Like I explained with level 4 spells. With Int 16 you do not get any level 4 bonus spells. For the Wizard level 4 spells are accessible when reaching character level 7. After reaching character level 8 though you got 2 additional stat points to raise Int to 18 to benefit from the additional spell slots. That was my reasoning for raising the primary stat later on when you would really need it.
Although it is a good argument that it affects the chance enemies succeed with saving throws.
The reason for instance I raised Charisma on my paladin to 18 on character creation was that the Paladin benefits immediately from it.

Yea I thought of giving the Bard this role although I only can reach (Character Level+3)/2 in Intimidate ranks. I am afraid that I fail certain checks because of that but I don't know what is actually needed. I hope I find some information on what I do actually need.

Yes, I really need to look that up to get at least a rule of thumb. Otherwise I just stick to maxing skills I want to focus on and just do not take as many for a single character. If the bard is going to be a speaker I probably could just decrease Dex and increase Int for more skill points. When not casting the Bard is singing anyway and should there be trouble I could just cast Mirror Image or any other defensive spell and not rely on AC. That should not happen too often anyway.

Why taking a single fighter level? Is it because of the bonus feat? As explained above I thought that perhaps the AC bonus applies to shape shifting forms because you do not wear any armor when shape shifted. But I don't know whether it actually works like that.

Yes, perhaps I will make the Rogue a purely ranged attacker and just add Ranger level when I have increased all the Rogue skills to a satisfying level and also have all the level 10 feats I want. But the question in this case remains: What is a satisfying level for Rogue skills like Disable Device or Open Locks? Because when I take ranger levels I likely cannot raise these skills further because they are not class skills. And because of the previous Rogue levels I probably already raised those skills above the value (Character Level+3)/2. So when I pick Ranger levels the Rogue skills that are not Ranger class skills are basically locked, right?

With a Bard I can only get Intimate to half of the values for Bluff and Diplomacy, because Intimidate is not a class skill for Bards. Is this still enough?

But you are right, I probably should spread some skills more in order to keep them maxed. And you cannot search for traps when sneaking anyway (something I always thought is silly but it is what it is).

Thanks for all the helpful advice!

 

One more vote for keeping the Druid pure. Early access to higher level spells is much more valuable than a few points of AC, unless you're trying to make your druid your party's only tank or something unexpected like that. Wisdom's AC bonus does transfer over to the shapeshifted forms, yes, but putting anything in your body armor slot (even a robe!) will negate it, even when shapeshifted. On the other hand, your tanks being Aasimars with an ECL penalty is actually a very powerful thing to do due to how the experience awards work.

Highest skill checks in the early game are in the 5-6 area (base skill points + attribute bonus combined) so anyone with a half-decent investment will do. Some early outliers are in the 7-8 region, though, to give an edge to those with maxed stats + skills. It gradually goes up from there, reaching 12-15 skill checks by Chapter Five, with a few outlier locks/traps at 17. Therefore, you don't usually need your skills as class skills, especially if you have high INT to counter it. You need at most two skill monkeys, and one will suffice if you're willing to endure some identification micromanagement and/or have a character without personal need for Concentration. Since you also have a Bard, a few more points in INT on him will comfortably let him cover all forms of diplomacy, including Intimidate.

Finding traps while stealthed is handled by Invisibility. Make sure your wizard has it if you intend on doing scouting - Stealth can and will fail you all too often, no matter how high. Note that Improved Invisibility won't work for this purpose.

Ranged attacks won't trigger Sneak Attack, so the only way to use Rogue's damage potential is to get to melee range. His Stealth will allow him to avoid initial aggro but he will be vulnerable after that. Luckily, light armors and high DEX combined with Rogue class are the key to stupidly high AC if you so wish - and why wouldn't you? Use your party's buffs on him to make him really shine. This is also THE reason why the rogue/wizard multiclass is so often mentioned - things really combine beautifully when your Rogue has access to Mirror Image!

 

Thanks, then I think I will keep the Druid single-classed. I do not want to manually remove and re-equip my armor all the time. Do the druid buffs like Static Charge or Bark/Iron Skins work when shape-shifted, or are buffs lost when you change forms?

So a level 10 Bard would be able to have (10+3)/2 = 6 (rounded down) skill points, plus the Charisma bonus of 5, given I have 20 Charisma by then. That would make 11. Sounds fine.

But in general: If you want increase a cross-class skill, would it be advisable to just take one level of a class which has that skill as class skill? Just to be able to put (Class Level + 3) points in that skill (instead of half like it is with cross-class skills), put all points you have in that skill and then just go on with your main class?

So if I go that way and focus on Sneak Attacks/Melee with my Rogue, I was thinking to with Wizard Level 3 to get some level two spells and then proceed with Rogue Levels to increase my Sneak Attack Bonus for more damage. I would pick a race that has either Wizard/Illusionist or Rogue as favored class.
Do you get the Sneak Attack applied to hits with the off-hand as well? If so I guess I would have to pick Ambidexterity/Two-Weapon Fighting too. Or would you pick that in any case? And of course I would go with Weapon Finesse because my strength score would be on the lower side.
What else to pick? Are the Rogue feats like Envenom Weapon, Crippling Strike, Hamstring, Dirty Fighting worth it? I fear that stronger enemies just roll a successful Saving Throw against the effects of these abilities and for weaker enemies you probably do not need them in the first place. This is the case with some spells, making them only good on paper, but not in practice.
What feats would go well for a melee/sneak attacking Rogue/Wizard?

Or perhaps I will just multiclass the Rogue/Wizard and even both levels out. Use the Rogue/Wizard for sneaking and just stick to ranged attacks. This would mean that my Wizard/Rogue would have levels 7/7 or something like that after finishing the game. Is that useful?

Can you elaborate on that? What other possibilities besides Dex bonus and Dodge do rogues have to raise AC?

I have one last question regarding Constitution. On level up you get your class HD + Consitution Bonus added to HP. If you increase Consitution from 15 to 16 and get a +1 bonus increase, will you get bonus HP for all the levels you already have? Or will this only apply on level ups? If the latter is the case increasing Constitiution later in the game seems kind of wasted.

And also if you decrease Constitution of an enemy with an ability like Envenom Weapon, will that enemy lose HP for every level it has because of the loss of Constitution Bonus? If the enemy loses those hit points temporarily, will he get some of those back when the debuff wears off?

Thanks again for all of your help

 

Another thing: is it possible to make a pick a formation where the leader is in the back? When I move the bard to the leader position, she is always in the front row next to one of my fighters. I want to keep her as leader, just positioned in the back. That was possible in other IE games afaik.

 

Regarding Skill Points for different classes. I read that at first level each class gets 4 times the skill points it would get on level up. So I just started the game and tried it out. Without the intelligence bonus classes get the following skill points on level up:

1: Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard
2: Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger
4: Rogue

Humans get 2 additional skill points at first level and 1 additional skill point for every level after.

So for example a human bard with 14 Int would get 18 skill points at first level. 2 points for being a bard, 2 for the +2 Int bonus. This times 4 because it's the first level. Equals 16 and to that add another 2, because humans get these as racial bonus at first level.
On every level after the first they get +2 (class), +2 (Int), +1 (human), so 5 points total.

A gnome wizard with 18 (+4) Int would get +1 (class), +4 (Int), a total of 5 points for every level, except the first, where they get 4 times that amount, so 20 points.

 

No, shapeshifting clears all of your buffs, despite their symbols staying on your portrait suggesting otherwise. Only way to get Barkskin on your shapeshift is to have another druid, for example.

"But in general: If you want increase a cross-class skill, would it be advisable to just take one level of a class which has that skill as class skill? Just to be able to put (Class Level + 3) points in that skill (instead of half like it is with cross-class skills), put all points you have in that skill and then just go on with your main class?"

> Upgrading your skill maximum limit to a class skill only requires one level of a class that has it as a class skill. Hence, Rogue (1)/Wizard(x) can, given enough INT, have maxed skills for both classes at all times.

"I will just multiclass the Rogue/Wizard and even both levels out. Use the Rogue/Wizard for sneaking and just stick to ranged attacks. This would mean that my Wizard/Rogue would have levels 7/7 or something like that after finishing the game. Is that useful?"

> Rather than doing a 50/50 split for your levels, consider what you get for more levels in each class.

Rogue: For every two levels, 4 extra hitpoints and +1d6 sneak attack damage, once per enemy per combat, no extras for dual wield or anything, somewhat better Reflex saves (nice but not nearly as necessary as Will saves which will suck).

Wizard: For every two levels, better Will saves (important), more feats, entire new spellcasting level with all the assorted goodies that come with it. Shield (the spell) is the very best armor in the entire game until Chapter Six, Mirror Image is OP, Fireball trumps Sneak attack many times over, Emotion: Hope is a mini sneak attack for your entire party for all attacks rather than just one and so forth.

In short, anything the Rogue has to offer, Wizard just does it better. Including the Rogues class skills, given enough INT. The only point of contest is the second Rogue level giving Evasion - a very powerful ability.

"Can you elaborate on that? What other possibilities besides Dex bonus and Dodge do rogues have to raise AC?"

> There's a Rogue-specific item giving +1 AC, on top of them benefiting from high DEX much more than, say, tanks and casters do.

 

It is dissapointing that it works that way. I thought that perhaps you can use buffs like Iron Skin and Static Charge and then shapeshift into another form to benefit from them. Are the shape shift forms useful even without the possibility to keep your buffs? My plan was to play the druid as a caster primarily and when there is nothing to cast I shapeshift or, when I don't have any more spells left, just do ranged attacks. This is why I went with 16 Dex, but only 10 Str. I would never melee in Human form.
Too bad that you get the first strong form only at level 9 (Polar Bear). That seems to be very late into the game.

And it would still cost only 1 skill point to increase Disable Device for example as Rogue 1 / Wizard X when you add another Wizard level? Because I think I remember that even though I had one Rogue level, there was something regarding my Rogue class skills that bugged me, when I gained another Wizard level. I would have to play a little further to test it though, until I gain another level.

Yes, I think I will try Rogue 1 / Wizard X then and see how I like it. This would make the Ranger 1 / Rogue X obsolete. I wanted him to be a scout. The Rogue/Wizard will be better at scouting ahead to find traps. I think I will try to create a Ranger 1 / Fighter X archer instead. Stick to light armor and take Weapon Finesse for when an enemy gets into melee range.

 

Although I agree that evasion is worth a second rogue level for a wizard unless dex is your dump stat and less than 10. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

 

Yea, Rogues have so many useful class skills it seems impossible to cover them all just with one character. I will see how I divide the skills for thieving, conversations and lore between my rogue and bard. I hope I can work something out, so I never fail any checks.

I cannot judge that as I am not far into the game, but Wizards have so many defensive spells already that I would hope that I got emergencies covered.

 

I feel the same way about the Wizard/Rogue. I will just take a single rogue level and stick to Wizard afterwards.

I really want to have a single character that has all three conversational skills maxed because I do not know beforehand what is being checked during a conversation. It seems kind of wasted but I perhaps put the skill points of my Paladin in Concentration instead, because my Bard handles conversations and I do get a few spells later on. As a front liner perhaps there are some spells I have to cast during combat and not before. It seems at least occasionally useful.

 

The problem is that a Paladin will often refuse rewards for quests, while a bard or rogue might be able to sweet-talk the NPC into a greater reward.
Unlike IWD1, there are far fewer Bard-only conversations/quests/rewards; so it doesn't matter who your "face" is. It's just that the Bard gets the second highest number of skill points and 2/3 of the conversation skills as class skills.
I use the bard for pick pockets and conversation skills plus knowledge(arcana), spellcraft, concentration, and use magic device to free the rogue for open locks, disable device, hide, move silently, use magic device, and search.
Intimidate isn't usually a problem if you max it out every other level and have a bard's high charisma (at least 16 to start and boost it every chance you get until it is at least 20 and use CHA boosting items when you find them), and you can always reload and let someone else do the talking if it isn't enough.
A rogue/wizard works as well, but take another rogue level every now and then to max out skills.