Chronology (what I can come up with)

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Welcome to a (possibly) ridiculously long post about the chronology we're facing with PS:T.Although I am new to these forums, I am pretty old to the game, having finished it numerous times (as if that counts for anything). I am not saying I am an expert in anything about the game, I am far from it, but I want to open up a discussion where we can try to come up with a chronology sort of thing to get events sorted out. I will greatly appreciate help from the more scholarly (and more knowledgeable *cough* Platter *cough*) regulars of the forums. So, let's get to what I could come up with on my own.

Shall I mention that this post will be infested with spoilers?

-The initial NO commits a lot of evil acts. I am not calling him an incarnation, but this guy is the Good Incarnation that you meet at the end of the game. The amount/nature of these evil actions is up to one's imagination, it is never clearly mentioned in the game. It is highly probable that this initial NO trained Ignus, even if it is for a VERY small amount of time (maybe he just trained Ignus around the ages of 5-10, maybe when he was younger). Ignus says he recognises TNO though his face has changed a lot.

(NOTE: The burning of the Alley is mostly probably a recent thing, possibly more recent than 50 years. The fact that the Practical Incarnation doesn't know about him at all (come on, Ignus is suspended in a bar, attracting customers) suggests so. You might wonder how did Ignus live that long -since there are supposedly thounsand of incarnations between the Initial NO and The Nameless One (henceforth referred to as TNO)- but we do not know if Ignus is human, or if he has practiced in necromantic arts to prolong his life. He was certainly a powerful mage, so possibilities seem limitless. The real reason why he burned down the alley is a mystery to me, maybe he wanted to start fires in other individuals, to fuel those sparks that he believes everyone has in them).

(SECONDARY NOTE: I am speculating even the initial NO refrained from using his actual name, and either used an alias / bogus name. The reason I am making this assumption is because most powerful wizards keep their actual names a secret, since names have power over individuals -more so with wizards. I am also assuming that the bronze sphere was a fail-safe item for the initial NO, probably an item where he stored core information about him -his name, etc...- and buried DEEP in ancient catacombs so it would be hard to find for others. Of course, in time, what with the Dabus burying a village and people plundering into deeper and deeper catacombs, the bronze sphere got to be not so buried deep at all)

-The initial NO figures out he'll end up in the abyss and remain there for all eternity when he dies, so he decides to make up for it by committing good deeds. Unfortunately, he has had a lifetime of evil, and his time is running out. So he seeks Ravel. As a side note here, it is quite possible that Morte (before he became a skull) told him he would be serving in the Blood War forevermore after he died OR that he needed to find Ravel to seek immortality. EITHER of these could be FLAT OUT lies (though they don't have to be).

-Ravel completes the ritual, kills the initial NO to see if he is immortal. The initial NO loses all of his memories. At this point, since she met the initial NO for the first time, it is probably a good assumption Ravel was not in love with him. As such, I am pretty sure after seeing him get back up from dead (with or without memories, Ravel doesn't care even if she knows), Ravel considered the deal complete and moved on to harder puzzles (ie: opening up the Cage).

-For obvious reasons, it is impossible to keep track of incarnations one by one after this point. But I am going to throw something for you to chew on: the memory flash you get of a previous incarnation pulling Morte out of the pillar may not be the practical one's, or it may be that an earlier incarnation did this as well (one that is chronologically VERY close to the initial NO, perhaps?).

-In the following incarnations, before Ravel tries opening up the Cage, Morte starts remembering stuff from his life and inevitably gets attached to the incarnations. Ravel learns of the Fortress of Regrets, and when the incarnations start visiting Ravel about their conditions, Morte learns this as well. Unfortunately, Morte finds out helping "new" incarnation with a flood of information is futile, since most of the time, they can't take it.

-Speaking of which, what makes new incarnations? In other words, how does one incarnation forget all and wake up remembering nothing? OK, this is really speculation: getting killed by shadows makes you forget. I know, getting killed by shadows in the game does not make you forget, but bear with me on this one: What if from the very beginning, TTO used the shadows to repeatedly kill you, hoping you would forget enough to stop pestering him, but eventually realised (after thousands of deaths) this was not getting him anywhere. You never get a big horde of shadows attacking you (like they attack Pharod) until after you enter the Fortress. The only shadows that attack you are the stray ones in the wards and a handful (that don't attack as a horde) in Ravel's maze. This doesn't sound like trying to kill you to make you forget, this sounds like pushing you to move on. As such, I think that in TNO's case, TTO has changed tactics: he wants TNO to lead him to people that know of the Fortress and slay those people (if possible). After this, when TNO finally reaches the Fortress, try killing him there (so he wakes up with no memory and no one to help him) or trap him somehow.

-Back to the chronology, it is quite possible the sensate incarnation was before the Practical and Paranoid ones. It is also quite likely that Ravel got mazed sometime before this. Unfortunately Ravel started getting weaker and weaker in the maze, and she started losing her memories as well. This is probably the time Ravel started falling in love with you. There's nothing suggesting that only the practical incarnation found his way to Ravel, it's more likely many incarnations found their way to her.

-Some incarnation MUST HAVE thrust Morte back into the Pillar, so that the Pillar learned of all this. Also, TTO says some past incarnations have annoyed him by finding their way to the Fortress, so the practical one is not the only incarnation that made his way there (but quite likely the last one before you). Another note: Morte probably only entered the Fortress once before TNO, and that time was with Practical. Otherwise, the Pillar would have learned actually HOW to enter the Fortress (I don't think the Pillar would lie just to make you chase after a fallen deva). Second note: Morte probably loses A LOT of memories to the Pillar, like you lose memories when you die, because when he gets pulled out of the pillar (supposedly by practical, by any incarnation is possible), he has no motive to lie to the incarnation when asked for information.

-OK, the real deal, the Practical Incarnation. By now I think it is safe to say that the Practical Incarnation was a single incarnation, not the sum of the previous "evil" incarnations, true he did A LOT of things, but I am sure practical lived a VERY LONG life. We know practical didn't wake up with Morte, a journal or tattoos, and these facts alone would require him to spend A LOT OF years trying to figure out what was wrong with him. If the sensate incarnation was before him (as I have mentioned in this chronology) then his first clue would have to be the sensory stone with Ravel in it. I guess he was trying to figure out why shadows were attacking out of nowhere and why he couldn't die, decided he could use the Sensate Faction's knowledge, and simply stumbled upon the stone.

-It is equally possible he learned about Ravel not through the sensory stone, but through Lothar (the powerful mage who collects skulls). Even if his first clue was the sensory stone, I am sure Practical contacted Lothar to learn more about Ravel. He may even have worked with Lothar to craft the portal that would take him to Ravel.

-Practical's next step is having a chat with Ravel (notice he hasn't done ANYTHING that we could recognise until now, didn't meet anyone from his party that entered the fortress, didn't contact Pharod or have tattoos on his body).

-He learns a great deal about himself talking to Ravel, probably how his immortality has become an entity, why he loses his memories, how to enter the fortress (Ravel probably forget some of this information later), why the shadows followed him, etc... I am assuming Practical did not fight Ravel, or did not try killing her (even if they fought), since Practical needed Ravel to stay alive (in case he died and lost his memories, letting Ravel stay in the maze was probably the first safety net against the memory loss.

(I'll continue this obscenely long thing tomorrow, must get sleep )

[ July 15, 2005, 23:05: Message edited by: Irenicus_Jon ]

 

I'm not sure Morte loses his memories, they just become shared. Sure, they might become woozy or distorted. Then again, Morte is rather guarded in his way about telling you much about the pillar until he feels he knows you better.
- Side question: how come Morte doesn't know more, don't all skulls in the pillar share their knowledge, or does the pillar have a collective mind? Given Morte's story and all the skulls asking to be pulled out I'd say the first is true. Sure, Morte knows a lot, but with sharing memories with all those evil sages and the like I'd expect more.
Morte might have known the initial one (the first) and lied to him, it might be possible. However, that would imply him knowing much more about the whole process than he seems to. After all, chances are he'd know much more about what the practical incarnation was doing. I'd say he lied to one of the earlier incarnations for some personal gain (he says something of that sort, iirc), and it was the practical one that took him out, as it was looking for a way in the fortress - and was furious when Morte didn't know it. Had Morte met the initial one, he might have had a clue.
- Side question: whose hand was it exactly that you find in the tomb, with all those tattoos, and when did these incarnations take place? I suppose they may be pre-Practical incarnations, but I have the nagging feeling one of these may be the paranoid one - he did visit the tomb, after all. It might be he discarded the arm fearing he could be tracked by it, or... well, there are many possibilities, you know TParO.
The practical one seems to be the only incarnation that has reached the fortress. That is a rather unlikely statement, I suppose, since you meet three incarnation there. However, the good can't possibly have gone and died there, so why should the paranoid one have done so? If it knew about it and could get in, it would have tried, but who would tell him? Morte and Dak'kon knew, as TParO came after TPraO (as he tells the practical that he made the tomb deadlier), but the paranoid one probably didn't hang around with Morte, at least for long. Also, chances are he didn't meet deionara at the fortress, or it would have been mentioned. While the practical was a very capable thief, he seems to have mostly stayed in Sigil, so he didn't fight Trias or go to the pillar. So he didn't go to the fortress.
- Side question: given that TNO couldn't find a soul to resurrect him there, and he still exists, it's even more likely TParO did not go there. However, how did the practical die - and how did his comrades (some of them, at least) survive, and shouldn't his reincarnation use another soul? If yes, whose - Xacariah's? It obviously wasn't Morte or Dakkon, I wouldn't go with Deionarra - seeing as her spirit is still whole and she guards the fortress.

 

My impression was that it was the Practical Incarnation that retrieved Morte from the Pillar. The Practical was one of the more recent incarnations, although not the most recent, so he didn't know much about TNO's life before that point. Morte does know a hell of a lot about TNO, but chooses not to reveal it. TNO has a good yell at him just before stepping through the portal in the mortuary for tis very reason; Morte knew where the portal was and how to open it, but said nothing.

There have certainly been more than two incarnations (including the final one) that made it to the Fortress. TTO says so. However, those incarnations you meet weren't the ones that managed to get there. If they were, then TNO in all his forms would be trapped inside that gem. They were just aspects of himself, buried in his mind.

I suspect that Xacariah's soul was taken from him when TPraO died. At that point, death still caused TNO to lose his memories, so TTO just cast him back into Sigil. However, keeping Morte and Dak'kon alive doesn't fit at all. TTO says that he's been killing off everyone who knew how to reach him, such as Trias, Ravel etc, but keeps those two alive... I find it improbable. Especially bothering to put Xacariah's body back in Sigil.

 

A few more details...
@ Jon: I don't think an incarnation put Morte in the pillar. From what he says, evil sages and advisers end up there after their death, and that is what happened to him after he died. I don't think he went to Baator before his death.
@ Alavin: I suppose Morte and Dak'kon were not so much kept alive as the TTO went after TPraO first. I think they mention, once you finally get them to talk about it, that they were separated and each "died a different death". Come to think of it, it might have been Xacariah who died "the death of the soul", I haven't played in a while. TPraO purposefully left Deionarra to die there so that she can, in a way, keep the portal open or at least have a "guard" in the fortress. I know this sounds vague, but TPraO did not expect to fail himself. Anyway, chances are Morte and Dak'kon escaped through the portal. I can't say deionarra died keeping it open or had died before that. Still, it's completely possible they carried Xacariah's body with them. Yet I would have expected them not just to hand it to the dusties... though that would have been TPraO's thing, alright.
At any rate, I don't think there have been any incarnations going to the fortress after the practical one - including the paranoid. Deionarra would have mentioned, at least.

 

Odd thought: What if there was more than one practical incarnation?

Here's my thinking. Each of the incarnations you meet at the end is actually something of an aggregate of different life choices you've made over the centuries. The Practical incarnation represents those that were ruthless, the Paranoid those that were crazy, and the Good those that tried to better life. Thus, you can get something of a confused chronology from them; the Practical Incarnation, IIRC, both made the tomb that you find, and snaps at the Paranoid Incarnation for leaving people angry at him.

Your character is the final form... the tabula rasa after everything else has gone before.

Any thoughts?

 

but isn't the "good" incarnation in fact the original nameless one? afaik he's not an aggregate. he was simply the original and apparently, according to himself, a REAL bad guy who just ended up changing at the end of his life.

 

Int iresting post... Here's some chronology bits that I picked up.

In the foundry, we know that a previous incarnation requested the dreambuilder be built, which was around a 100 year process. He also pawned the portal device, to which the man has now aged significantly...

Here's where there's some, ah, discreptancies that I cannot figure out with TPraO...

1. TNO meets up with Deionnara's Father. Her father by no means appears to be a necromancer / lich. Assuming that people age as long as they do in Sigil, perhaps no more than 40 years at most have passed since he last saw Deionnara leaving.

2. We learn that the linguist in URO was killed - the one who taught the language to TPsyO, also around the same time. The current linguist is pretty old himself. That could mean that after TpraO died in the fortress, the next incarnation could have immediately been TChaO.

3. We know that TPraO trapped Vhailor, and that Vailor has been resting for QUITE some time. This leads me to believe he also trained Ignus.

4. We know TPraO murdered the toombmaker in the lower ward, suggesting that act happened somewhere around 20-40 years since TNO woke?

5. The old fish selling lady recognised you with your companions - so that puts the timeline perhaps over 20 years ago...

- - - -

In other words, so little time has passed since Deionarra dissapears from her father's, to when the linguist is killed.

- - - -

Last but not least, I'm wondering about Morte and the pillar. We know that a previous incarnation pulled him OUT of the pillar. Perhaps it was done because Morte travelled with TNO when they were both alive (Morte and TNO). The pillar does admit that "those who used to know TNO's name are gone"... And yet, one of the incarnations KNEW who Morte was. Either it was done because Morte KNEW TNO's true name and the incarnation wanted it...


... OR, the GOOD 'incarnation' was still mortal and pulled Morte OUT so OTHERS wouldn't know his true name. Perhaps that is why Morte alludes to "you won't be able to pull me back out - you're not as strong as your previous self"

 

iirc TPRAO admits at the end to being the one to pulling Morte out. He says something like, Morte? Who? Oh, the skull,, I pulled him out of Baator, he's still alive? or something like that

 

- Morte
I think it can be assumed that Morte was the one who somehow caused the original mortal NO to somehow go on his path to loose his mortality. I forget the exact words but Morte at some point says he thinks he is that one that caused all the NO's torment. However it may be possible that Morte does not, nor did he ever, know NO's true name.
I'm pretty sure the Practical one is the first one to have contact with Morte as a skeleton. I'm also pretty sure he didn't get Morte until after he decided that the tomb wasn't working and wanted to confront his attacker. This makes Morte leaving the Pillar just before Practical one gathered the gith, the girl, and that archer, probably in that order.
I have a question tho. Is there any reason in Morte's affinity for the ladies other than for the humor, not that that reason isn't enough =D

- Chronology
Now the original mortal is supposed to have done something so bad that even countless lifetimes of good deeds won't fix it. Could it be that he was the one that caused the Blood Wars? He was probably also a member of the sensate since the bronze sensory stone was made just before he went to Ravel.
I believe the good incarnation is the original you and not one of the "incarnations" because as the story goes, you loose all memory as soon as Ravel grants you immortality. Since he's the only one that is supposed to know the original mortal, the memory loss would rule out anytime after meeting Ravel.
However, there's that story seeker girl that tells of the three wishes. I believe at some point, probably before Ravel crosses the Lady and looses her memory of how she did it all, you ask for your "life back to normal" due to your forgetfulness. Gaining back your memory, but also your mortality. Then you quickly ask for your mortality away.
Up to now is before Ravel got mazed, and it is rumored that Ravel was mazed centuries ago. So that means the actual removal of your immortality has to be at least over 200 years ago.
The only limiting factor I could find for the length of time Practical incarnation can date back is Ignus, if Practical One truely did not train him. If Ignus were a powerful mage he could have been over 100 years old, also strengthened by the fact that his current lover is fairly old as well (and we all know how them mages like younger women o.O).
So lets say the practical one started about 10 years or so after the flashback with Ignus as a child, then that would mean Practical one lived about 60-70 years. Plenty of time to wander around and find out everything on his own (you found out in under a month right?).
Before the current incarnation is definently the psycho one. From what I understand the pyschosis isn't merely due to dying, it also has to do with Practical one dying in the Fortress. He's probably was around for about 40 years. I'm guessing 50 at most. In the flash back to the Practical one's tomb comission, the current coffin builder was a little kid when the tomb wasn't even started. If the guy is in the mid 50's now that means the tomb finished about 40 years ago. Leaving the kid an orphan in his early teens to join the Harmonium.

I think the crystal trap can be thought of as a mirror into current incarnation's mind. Sort of like multiple personalities. It's a trap and the other yous are pretty much the same things as the psycho in the sensory stone. Except they do exist in you mind.

If this posts seems patchy it's cause I typed it up in patchs lol

[ August 18, 2005, 22:41: Message edited by: Sor ]

 

What he says is that he thinks the lie that got him on the Pillar caused one of TNO's deaths. He doesn't say anything more specific than that, nothing about it being the original incarnation.

Yes, he explicitely tells you in the game that he is the original incarnation.

A quote from Dave Maldonado who wrote that part;
"Yeah, I put both that story and the painting description in. We all know that memory isn't fact, but merely a fallible recollection of an individual's perception of some event - perhaps what TNO is remembering when he sees the painting is Morte's story (mixed with some associations of his own; three cheers for the subconscious at work) and not an actual event; after all, who knows how many times Morte has told it to him over the years? Or perhaps TNO told Morte and then "forgot," and so Morte mocks him with it. Who knows... the story was really just an excuse to use that lame genie joke, and the painting... heck, everything in that wacky museum is just there to be interesting.

Apologies; it's really nothing deep or particularly interesting."

 

But if the Good Incarnation is the original, that would make him the one who had his Mortality stripped from him, right? But Ravel said that you lost your memories when you became Immortal. So how come he actually remembers so much? Did he still have the Bronze Sphere with him at the time (perhaps as insurance)?
In that light, maybe he isn't the first incarnation per se, but rather he's the original human before he lost his memories at Ravel's clawed hands.

Still, if that's the case, why is he just as horribly scarred as the rest of the Incarnations? Was he involved in the Blood Wars before meeting with Ravel (i would assume that's the case), or did the developers simply not deem it necessary to creat a seperate character model for him (it would sort of give it away, wouldn't it?)?

 

Rhys Hess has written a pretty exhaustive history of TNO; I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet. It can be found here:

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/hist_no.php

[Link replaced; please link to SP for content available here, especially in the case of that site which has stolen from SP pretty much all Torment content it has up. -Tal]

[ September 19, 2005, 16:19: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

thanks for the link, that was pretty good.