Best Sneak Attacker

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I wanted to play a character who dealt out godly amounts of Sneak Attack damage.

If he had the ability to use Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Flame Weapon, Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace etc etc...it would be a great plus.

So...can you guys suggest some builds?

Keep in mind, most important is highest Sneak Attack damage...after that, the buffs.

 

You could choose assassin over rogue for death attack, which is a wee bit more useful (paralyze).
But for a load of sneak attack damage, you'd be a high level rogue with improved sneak attack, giving you a 30d6 at the most.

To include the buffs, a cleric/rogue/fighter should satisfy your needs.
For the build itself... start as a rogue for the skills, then build cleric for your buffing needs and include a rogue level every now and then for sneak attacks.

 

Do you know if Sneak attack, Death attack and the Blackguard's Sneak attack stack?
Shouldn't you include at least one level of Shadow Dancer in this build? It would make life much easier for the Rogue.

 

Depends how you want to sneak attack. Do you want to hide and suprise or tank with a friend and deal "flanking" sneak attack damage. If you want to hide dancers are great but the tank ine you will want to add warrior to the mix.

 

I definitely want to hide. I'll be playing the single player HoTU campaign.

I heard that a Ranger/ShadowDancer/Assassin 5/1/X build is good...but you dont get any buffs that way! NWN limits you to 3 classes max in a multiclass, which is very stupid. IWD2 was awesome with my Ranger/Paladin/Fighter/Illusionist/Rogue/Monk Deep Gnome!

Ah well...

I'm considering gipping the Ranger 5 in favour of Fighter 4 as you get Weapon Specialization as well as the extra feats you would have received for having Ranger's Dual Weild feats anyway...

I might go 2 lvls of SD as well for the free Evasion ability...that would be invaluable with all the spell casters in this game.

Here's the stuff I've decided on, further to yesterday's post.

Dualweilding is crucial.
Buffs till about lvl 3 would be nice...can Clerics cast Darkness?
Everything else is filler material I suppose. I'm going to be maxing out Assassin levels instead of Rogue for sure...just not sure about the mixin classes.

Edit: I checked...woot! Cleric's have Darkness as a lvl 2 spell! And if I take Travel as a domain, I get Haste as well...I just have to take around 8 lvls I think...which is perfect for the 2 lvls of SD and the rest as Assassin! This is awesome

Except...stupid Clerics will take FOREVER to get to the required amounts of Hide/Move Silently...is there any work around for this?

I COULD take Rogue/Shadowdancer instead...but that is gay!

Suggestions?

[ August 18, 2005, 04:45: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

Bards get Darkness and Haste too + they have hide and move silently. Btw Assassins get Darkness at level 5. You'll need 7 levels of Bard (which has some nice perks like UMD). Getting the requirements for Assassin won't be a problem (5 levels as a bard are needed) though you will have to be NE. The 10 points in Hide for Shadow Dancer will need a 7th level character anyway.
That would look like: Bard 7 Shadow Dancer 2 Assassin X.
Rangers look good but I wonder if to get the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat you still have to pick both Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting anyway (the Ranger's Dual Wield feat seems to be extraneous).

 

Best Sneak Attack user. Monk(9), Rogue(10), Shadowdancer(1). Up rogue by 20 in epic.

You don't need any buffs with that build, especially if you get Self Concealment. (You should get Epic Dodge anyway.)

 

@Taza: why not Monk/Shadow Dancer/Assassin then? Rogue doesn't look that good compared to Assassin (except for skill points) furthermore it forces you to pick two basic classes.

 

I would argue with all of you...

1. Rogue better than an Assassin
Just compare this two. With the sneak attacks there is no real difference. There are some Assassin abilities what ARE limited to a number times of a day. Rogue has constant skills and bonus feats. With Improved Evasion rogue can stand in the middle of any magical fire. Just reflex saving throws must be high enough. Don't forget the Deffensive Roll and the final aim the Epic Dodge!
Assassin has nice spell like feats, Invisibility Darkness, but why is it important there are tons of potions and scrolls out there. The Rogue has enough skill points to max Use Magic Device skills...
I see only one advantage of the Assassin what is the Great Dex epic feat, that's why I would use some Assassin level too... (discussed later)

2. Ranger class makes the Rogue build weaker
To have ambidexterity, 2 weapon fight, and improved 2 weapon fight you need to take 9 level of ranger (10 is better cause of a favourite enemy)
But with 4 level of a Fighter you can also gain 3 extra feat, and 6 level left for the rogue to improve your sneak attack.

And dont forget this post is about the sneak attacks!

You also gain few max 2 level spells, but need to have wis of 12 at least... No DEX 16 and INT 16 anymore...

3. Using Monk reduces your attack per round
At maximum you will have 3+2 attacks... monk gives you only Cleave, Knockdown the Evasion, Improved Evasion is useful but redundant. Not a bad build but there are better ones. By the way Monk gives you lots of saving throws too... I would take ony 1-2 level of it... Monk(1)/SD(1)/Rogue(x)

Ok, I was negative until this point... What are my suggestions:

A.) Dual wield sneaking fighter type
Rogue(x)/ShadowDancer(1)/Champion of T(6-8)
Grants you 14-16d6 Sneak attack damage, you can max out the discipline skill beside all the Rogue ones. SD provides Hide in plain sights so you dont need darkness spell or invisibilty anymore.
Take Dodge, Mobility, Ambidex, 2W Fight, Imp 2W Fight, Cleave, Weapon Focus (rapier), And Epic Dodge!!! Also Imp Evasion as a Rogue feat, Deffensive roll. Lots of useful skill even for a fighter. But there is a difference you do some extra sneak damage
Why CoT? Cause of the 3-4 extra saving throw and because the reflex and fortitude are primary savings. This means you have the highest reflex saving throw in the game. Not against traps but for Fireballs and any other intresting spells. CoT also grants 4+2 attacks per round... In a round you may even kill 3-4 enemies with your sneak attacks.

B.) The evil sneaker
Rogue(x)/ShadowDancer(1)/Assassin(14-18)
Ok, I hate Assassin but at level of 14, and 18 it receives Great Dex... Why is it important? If you start with an elf with DEX18 at level of 32 you may achieve DEX30 so you have 8 levels to maximize the SelfConcealment up to 50%.
Epic Dodge negates the first hit, and every hit has 50% chance to miss... not bad. A deffensive Assassin what a big mistake! But it also has very good Improved Evasion skills with good reflex savings. You will have only 3+2 attack maximum but 20d6 extra damage from sneak attacks...

I have never tried this because I dont like evil builds, but it would be very efficient...

Well if you build something with lot's of Rogue or Assassin levels you can't make a wrong char. Just when you are playing keep in mind you can use magic scrolls, traps and any dirty tricks in the game. Powergaming? No way! Just you are a rogue everything is allowed!

 

Monk has just as many or more attacks than the equilevant fighter build. Which stinks anyway. One of the builds I like is CoT7/Rog12/SD1, which doesn't work that well as a sneak attack build however.

For optimized Sneak Attacking you should either go with Rogue19/SD1 (CoT4/Rogue35/SD1 for epic - take the CoT4 pre-epic with Rogue16, and SD at 22th level) or Monk9/Rogue10/SD1 (or Monk8/Rogue12 + Monk1/SD1/Rogue18 at epic).

 

Does not the Monk attacks are limited to kama and unarmed? Or it get's in case of any weapon? Or it depends on what patch are you using?

 

I could never be a Monk...HoTU weapons are way too cool and powerful. He can only ever use fists effectively. Kama's dont count.

I've done some reading and come up with a further few ideas:

Firstly, Fighter 4 gives you 3 extra feats which can be used for the dual-weilding feats.

This also gives you weapon specialisation AND most importantly 4 attacks by 20 lvl. This is VERY important as the whole point of this build would be to get the highest number of attacks possible.

Secondly, I wanted to ask - how does Initiative figure into sneak attacks? I read in a guide for Assassins that the higher your Initiative, the more of your normal attacks get counted as Sneak Attack because apparently the enemy hasn't recognised your presence yet...is this true?

Thirdly, Darkness is moot when you have Hide in Plain Sight! I was playing around with a test character I made up yesterday...unless its Golems, Vampires or Dragons...the enemies don't stand a chance! It doesn't matter if you have Sneak Attack or not! A lvl 1 Mage with Hide in Plain Sight could finish this game solo!!!

This makes the spell casting ability for Darkness also moot...which frees up my character for those all important Shadowdancer levels.

Fourthly, should I take ten levels in Shadowdancer? You get all the ubercool Rogue feats for free, PLUS a free summon which scales with your levels...for which you sacrifice 5d6 damage. Would the tradeoff be worth it? Would I be able to make up for it with Improved Sneak Attack feats?

Fifthly, are there any items in the OC, SoU or HoTU which cast Darkness other than just scrolls? I mean stuff like Rings of Invisibility etc...x uses per day. Is there?

Sixthly, can you also please suggest what ability scores I should use? I got down to building the character up and I found that I can't decide between Strength based and Dex based builds. Mostly because Weapon Finesse severely limits my choices.

Which brings me to my next question...can I dual weild Scimitars with Weapon Finesse?

Phew...that's a lot of questions eh? If you guys could leave your responses to points 1 to 7...I'd appreciate it!

 

Rogue/Shadowdancer/Assassin for a clear Dark Side embodiment.

Alternatively, you might wish to dump either Assassin or Shadowdancer and get Weaponmaster instead. Dual kukris, for example.

I suggest you take a look at epic character builds at BioWare. They feature the whole path of advancement and detail such things as the amount of Sneak Attack Damage the character can deal.

One of those is the Chaos Harbinger, a Cleric/Rogue/Fighter with Devastating Critical and War and Trickery as his chosen domains.

The Devastating Rogue is a plain Rogue(36)/Fighter(4) but with a good choice of abilities. Again, curiously, this is not a Finessed character (his STR is bigger than DEX).

The Versatile Kensai is a Rogue/Wizard/Weaponmaster. His Sneak Attack Damage is "only" 7d6 but he's quite an able wizard in his own right.

The Dark Stalker is a Ranger/Shadowdancer/Assassin and something close to my Rogue/Shadowdancer/Assassin idea. Fighter could get you Weapon Specialisation instead, but with Ranger, you can have humans as your racial enemy.

For a ranged sneak attacker, see the Rogue Archer, a Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer.

Note: Cleric/Shadowdancer/Assassin hasn't been done yet.

[ August 19, 2005, 15:53: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I'd very much suggest Champion of Torm 4 instead of Fighter 4 as you're powergaming anyway. Champion of Torm gets a save bonus compared to Fighter and loses Weapon Specialization - with which you won't do much anyway with that sneak attack damage. And fighter has an experience penalty.

Pre-epic Champion of Torm 4 / Rogue 16, in epic add in 1 rogue level, 1 shadowdancer level and then 18 rogue levels.

Best build at Sneak Attacking. It's 35 rogue and the alignment restriction is any non-evil.

 

@Taza: I'm liking the sound of that. I'm in NWN OC at the moment, just about to finish up with Chapter 1...my character is lvl 7 at the moment...Rogue 5/Fighter 2...I was going to multiclass to SD at the next level up and then add the remaining 2 fighter levels...but this works out nicely as well.

I've got the PGCP (SP?) module, so reworking my character to those new classes before I start Chapter 2 shouldn't be a problem.

Quick question though...what are the requirements for CoT? What is the earliest level I can multiclass to SD if I use CoT? It is imperative that I have the SD level ASAP as I'm playing this build from lvl 1 onwards.

 

In that case you should get to Shadowdancer at level 8 (going pure rogue before), and have your pre-epic build at Rogue12/SD4/CoT4 (for 4 attacks) and then 20 levels of rogue in epic. (Or any other combination, such as 14 levels of Rogue and 6 levels of Shadowdancer.) (Also Rogue8/Shadowdancer8/Champion of Torm 4 would work (and Rogue18/Shadowdancer2 in epic) - you could spare your rogue bonus feats for Improved Sneak Attack.)

Prerequisites for Champion of Torm are a non-evil alignment, Weapon Focus in any melee weapon and Base Attack Bonus +7. You get the BAB+7 earliest with Rogue8/Shadowdancer2.

Rogue15/Shadowdancer1/Fighter4(or CoT4) DOES NOT get 4 attacks! You need +16 BAB to get 4 attacks. Shadowdancer/Rogue get 3 bab for every 4 levels (0.75 a level) and Fighter/CoT gets 1 bab every level. But Shadowdancer and Rogue fractions DON'T stack.

So if you want Shadowdancer pre-epic, take 4 levels. In epic every class gets 1/2 bab every level.

 

4 Shadowdancer levels are a waste if you are a rogue...if you are an assassin, the bonus feats like Improved Evasion etc. are invaluable, but otherwise, not very great.

Hmm...I'm not very sure that's true Taza...atleast, all the builds I've come across on NWNVault over at IGN so far had 4 levels of fighter, with 1 lvl of Shadowdancer, and it didn't seem to make much of a difference as far as the 4 attacks were concerned...something I'll need to test as soon as I finish with classes today!

I've been looking at the requirements for Epic Dodge and Self Concealment...there is NO WAY I can get those early enough in the game to make a difference...in fact, I cannot get them in a normal game, unless I use something like:
~ DebugMode 1
~ GiveLevel 40
~ DebugMode 0

What's the point of that? Admitted, with weapon finesse, you get awesome AC the whole way through...but when you are going to be hiding in plain sight most of the time, AC is a non-issue. More important is your ability to vanish without a trace...so getting caught out with a stun would be pretty stupid.

I'm going to look into that Devastating Rogue build over at Bioware.com...and see if I can fit in a level of SD pre-epic...it's a lot more effective IMO...

Cheers.

 

Yeah, it's a shame that there aren't more benfits for advancing in Shadowdancer. Once you get Hide in Plain sight, you don't really need any more Shadowdancer levels.

 

However...a ShadowDancer-Weaponmaster-Fighter build would be pretty great...

Shadow Evade, Death Roll, Slippery Mind...very useful for a Dual-Scimitar weilding Weaponmaster, no?

 

No, not really.

And you're relying WAY too much on Hide in Plain Sight. It really doesn't work well. A first level mage would be fried well before even reaching underdark in HotU even with HiPS.

And yes, if you use Shadowdancer pre-epic, you DO need 4 levels of it - or 7 levels of fighter-type. The fighter-type4/Shadowdancer1/Rogue15 is just a stupid build.

And you can get Epic Dodge pretty easily, it doesn't require that much tumble as it shows.