Sorcerer(s)..

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No matter what D&D game... Sorcerers are the best in the end game. Best. Everything falls to a prepared sorcerer, and if you were unprepared, you deserved it. The only competition I see is a monk. Sorcerer still wins that one in my book.

Any thoughts?

 

Depends what criteria you use to describe 'best'.

A fighter is better than a sorcerer in situations where you have loads of small enemies respawning continually when you have no opportunity rest and relearn spells but the enemies respawn after each spell effect runs out.

A fighter is better if you're too lazy to keep having to select spells to cast.

A cleric is better at turning undead.

A shadowdancer is better at vanishing from right in front of enemy without having to worry about his invisibility spell being disrupted.

Etc.

 

May have to try a sorceror. Monks have their limits though...

A Rogue/Fighter has got the job done for me thus far...

 

They're nowhere near the best.

Clerics are.

Try a cleric that started as a monk (Monk1/Cleric19).

Sorcerers are simple, that's all.

 

No no no.. A sorcerer can deal with the pissant enemies... hordes of them... Area Effect spells can deal with the wee-ones.

And, because of how the memorization thing works with sorcerers, you are a whole lot more versitile in battle.

Turning undead, eh? Don't have to, Burning hands will clear an undead problem right up.

Why ever would a sorcerer (most particularly end-game) ever want to vanish? Just cast Horrid Wilting on whoever is bothering you and watch them die from two bouts of 60 + pure magic damage (convieniently bypassing their elemental resistances)

.. I have played Clerics... no fun there. RP reasons as well as Power reasons.

I just don't like the idea of god-given power, I prefer personal strength.

Any which way... There are a few spells that I dearly miss from the BG2 days... first being "Greater Malison"... saving throw modifier of -4... and Lower Resistance, -10 spell resistance + 1 per caster level I think it was...

Yes.. well.. Sorcerers are still proven best!

 

The sorcerer can't deal with hordes of pissant enemies after he has run out of spells.

 

Try that build. You will be surprised. It's a melee monster in top of having 9th level cleric spells.

Sorcerers don't stand a chance, PvP or PvM.

I've played a lot of sorcerers.

They'll lose to Cleric/Monks, Wiz/Monk/Arcane Archers, Wizard/Rogues and even Rogue/Fighters.

 

hrmmm... I disagree, with the both of you.. first, if you have a good sorc build, he will not "run out". High charisma allows for many spells, and the memorization thing allows for even greater versitility.. and if they are "hordes" an area effect spell will take them all out... even if they do make it past, summoned creatures will take care of them, an a familiar...


And to the cleric/fighter man... In my experience, Timestop is hard to beat, and a fully buffed sorcerer is very hard to hit, impossible at times...

yes well... hrmm

 

I've gotten 60+ AC with a Cleric/Monk pre-epic.

In addition it has plenty of melee spells (I usually memorize ~15 Divine Favors (normal and extended) and ~10 Divine Powers (again, normal and extended) to melee long after the sorcerer has wasted all his spells), it can fight just fine unbuffed if it finds a decent Kama, it can cast spells like Implosion, Storm of Vengeance, Word of Faith, Harm, Heal etc.

The OC's aren't even hard, you can solo with any decent build without breaking a sweat if you know how to play. Even with a bard/harper scout.

Face it - while Sorcerers are powerful, they're nowhere near the best builds in the game.

EDIT: Btw, in the arena servers I'm playing a Sorcerer screams "newbie!" unlike any other - a few good sorcerers survive, most are just point cows.

 

Hehe, maybe I should take this in another direction now. Seeing as to how I have little multiplayer experience, I will concede to your points...

I suppose the lure that sorcerers have for me is the "raw" power they wield... A power that is their own by natural ability.... I find it easier to imagine an all powerful sorcerer than... lets say.. an all powerful cleric or fighter... heh, I can see it for monk...

I don't know, I am just prejudiced towards sorcerers due to the roleplaying aspect of them...

And... the 60+AC is quite an accomplishment... though one thing I hate about fighting close quarters is that no matter how high your AC is, there is always a 5% chance that you will be hit... I was playing as a fighter a while back... high AC and all.. two fellows hit criticals on me in a row.. (4 natural 20s)... It peeved me... So I tend to like the immunity from magical weapons more.

Yes.. well, thanks for all of the comments

 

Ok, let's see the roleplaying aspect than and start the race! Drop 4 independent solo characters at the Academy. A Sorceror, a Fighter, a Cleric, and a Thief. Let's see which one will clear the plague first? That one is the strongest.

I would bet on the Thief, especially if later combined with Monk(3) and Paladin(1)... Can cast anything from scroll, high saving throws, sneak attack, and can set traps.

 

Well, you seem to assume that your sorcerer will be given the opportunity to rest, but this isn't always the case. Running out of spells is a remote possibility, even for a relatively low-level sorcerer, but a real one. Absent spells, a sorcerer can only run and fire arrows without a high hope of accuracy.

Arguably, a well-managed sorcerer character should be able to deal with anything from hordes of annoying little creatures to single immunity-laden bosses. But all his buffs can be dispelled, all negative effects his spells have on others can be dispelled, his summoned creatures can be banished and, mind you, all this takes time to cast and costs slots.

As for versatility, it's true that you don't need to trouble yourself selecting spells to memorise and you can use your slots for a given level on any spell you want any number of times, but the downside is that you need to know all the spells you want to use and the number of spells you know is limited.

In pen and paper D&D, a wizard would depend on his spellbook, so locking him down without one could be his doom. In games, however, this is not the case and he can learn any spell he meets on his way and keep it for later use.

As for clerics, Taza is right. Clerics also have summons and no weaker than sorcerers have. They have a wider selection of buffs and protective spells and, with the right management, a cleric can arrive at heights of combat ability undreamt by fighters, while keeping himself impervious to magical attacks. A solo cleric in melee can cure and heal himself such a number of times that it borders on impossibility to kill one without an extremely buff-laden character and even then it's still going to be tough.

Specifically in NWN, paladins will make a short work of sorcerers, too. Protection from Death Magic prevents your one-time insta-death attacks. Greater Magical weapon blesses a butter knife into a +5 tool of doom for your Stoneskin. Holy Sword blesses any sword into a +5 Holy Avenger that dispels magic on hit and deals extra damage to evil targets. Then there is Divine Favour to provide separate, stacking bonus to attack and damage (Magic). Divine Might in conjunction with Eagle's Splendour and Aura of Glory can give him up to +10 to damage from divine energy. Deafening Clang adds damage from sound and a 20% chance of deafening the character. Just which sorcerer has resistance to sound or divine energy? Maybe to that bonus to damage (Magic), but that's about it.

A well-buffed level 15 paladin with a sword and Improved Criticals in it has about +30 bonus to hit (twice his base, notably), scores threat on a natural 17-20 and can hit a critical for 70 points of damage. A level 15 sorcerer doesn't even have 70 hit points... Even without criticals, he goes down in two or three swings.

Then you also have single class monks who will turn you into chicken feed without much fuss. Just think about Fighter/Monk/Weaponmasters who will be touched by a spell once in a century and who score a critical every third or fourth swing. Or something like a Rogue/Shadowdancer/Weaponmaster with two kukris... Critical on 12-20, damage multiplied by three and sneak damage added on top of it, plus hiding in plain sight. Not to mention some Paladin/Champion of Torm/Weaponmaster characters, especially if the sorcerer is evil. I've seen one build able to do 2000 damage on a critical hit on top of Smite Evil.

There are many ways of turning a sorcerer into a puddle on the floor.

 

An Arcane Archer.. all It takes is 1 arrow of death. Boom. No more sorcerer/wizard....