Humans

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This topic arises from the thread "This is how Barbarians should be" on the BG2 board. In on of the later posts Rakanushu said that Barbarians, Wsiard, Kensais - they all suck compared to such powerful creatures as Beholders and Ulitharids. I totally disagree.
There is a very good Russian fantasy book writer - Nick Perumov. This is the quote from one of his books (translated very approximately from Russian so no flames pls).

"... Legionaries could do everything. Non-human races each have one talent: nobody surpasses dwarves in fighting in the close formation; elves are unsurpassed archers; danu are unbeatable in fights on horseback. Legionaries are not as strong as orcs. There are few berserkers among humans, and every second orc is one. Humans lost to elves the forest wars, they lost to dwarves in fortress siege. Kobolds were most skilled in constructing field fortifications from nothing, becoming an unsurpassable barrier for attacking lines. All in all, humans were weaker than anyone.
But they won non the less, because although they were not as skilled as other races in something particular, they used all methods of warfare."

Plus, the utter meaning of human life is: get born, live a short and as full life as possible and then die, giving room for the next generation. Humans can spend ten or humdred warriors to kill one Elder Orb, and still consider it a victory. All Higher races can not afford to pay that price for their victories, and that's why they lose.

I would like to hear your comments on that.

 

That's all really from a human point of view.

What of the illithid? It was not humans that overthrew what sounds like a vast multiplanar empire that encompassed parts of the Astral and a few primes. It was the Gith.

Consider also that Maglubiyet's goblins were fighting Grummsh's Orcs and Kurtulmak's kobolds on Avernus - the first layer of the Nine Hells - long before fallen angels ousted the original inhabitants of the Hells and became the Baatezu. This unending war rages still on Acheron.

I postulate that on many prime worlds the non-humanoid races such as goblins and orcs reign supreme, and humans there if not totally extinct live in a perpetual state of misery as slaves. These worlds are a shame to humans and thus not talked about. Unlike Faerun and Oerth, the epitome of human civilizations. Everybody wants to go there.

And who says this could not be true? Do goblins not breed fast? Are hobgoblins not more dexterous and yet not dumber than the average human? Is it not true that hobgoblins are a martial and warlike race understanding of discipline and strategy?

Besides, look at how the humans colonized the planes. They colonized it first as fodder and vermin refugees, but finally they've carved out a niche for themselves, if little more.

 

That's what i think too, and sadly there are only two markable rebellions against human domination over fish: Moby Dick and White Shark

 

That reminds me on an old Greenpeace joke maybe it fits also in fantasy worlds.

Two planets are meeting each other.
"Hello, how are you doing"
"Hi, not fine..i have homo sapiens"
"Ohh, don't worry, that will pass"

 

Bogi- LOL!!

 

LOL Bogi

But eh, Modjahed, nice quote, but aren't we talking about the D&D-multiverse here ? And more in specific (I guess) the world of Toril, Faerun even ?

If we restrict ourselves to this part of the world, humans as a species might appear to be the most powerful, because of their vast numbers, but that has more to do with the disinterest of the other races to command and conquer as 'we' do, or the lack of number of abberations as the Beholder-kin, or the fact that Illithed prefer to work in the background and act as unseen overlords, as sneaky advisors who're actually in control of things, or at least of the what they're interested in. In Faerun, the humans can't really win, since they're the only players.

A single, normal human must be one of the weakest species around. In group, 'our' strenght, 'we' grow to moderate power, and thanks to some, very rare (remind that!), extremely powerful exceptions humans might become supreme. Your average player character isn't an average human after all. While any drow, Illithid or Beholder is still a devastating force on its own, no matter how young or inexperienced.

 

If you had to choose one single character, knowing you would have to do multiple quests alone or with few other helpers, of whose qualities you had no knowledge at the time of character generation, a well balanced human would be a very likely choice (mage of course).
The lack of real weaknesses far outweighs any specialty bonuses.

 

Modj, any specific titles by Perumov u would suggest to read?

Humans are not the weakest race...unless u consider strength as just pure physical strength. We have evolved from the barbarians to become what we are. I guess u can consider ourselves as wizards, take away their magic wands and staff, and their spells and they are defenceless. We have our technology and social structure instead... Human is a social animal, and he should be judged on the strength of the society or the civilisation he lives in and not by how big our muscles are. We do have specail ablities, to fly and to see ahead (literally and by means of prognosys) and much more... Don't judge humans by a naked body in a bath tube

 

If we're talking about the might of a technical civilisation don't forget the role dwarves and gnomes play in Faerun

 

Exactly.

And yet again, humans are perhaps the mightiest race in Faerun, but only because the others aren't interested (Elves, Dwarves,..) or simply not numerous enough (a hundred Illithid could conquer half of the world, but eventually the human's sheer mass would stop them).

 

Nah, humans can't stop illithids. Don't forget that the "sheer mass" would also be fighting other human thralls. Battle hardened thralls at that.

And the illithids would probably have minotaurs and grimlocks too. Can you imagine how you'd fight against odds like those?

Nah. Maybe the reason the illithids haven't taken over Faerun or Oerth yet is because of those pesky dragons. Else every human fighter or mage would already have been mind blasted into a stupor.

 

I think the illithid are too busy fighting the gith. A previous post mentioned our own earth, but as we're comparing humans to fantasy races here, shouldn't we stick to a faerun context?

 

Re: Lo.
Are you familiar with Perumov? if not, that is a reading lsit I would suggest:
1) Ring of Darkness - Three books (Sequel to LOTR - very good one)
2) Hiorvard (english sp?) Chronicles - sequel to Ring of Darkness (three books)
3) Wooden Sword, Diamond Sword (two books) - sequel to the above;
4) Forbidden Magics - two books. That one is a separate one about techno-magic. Very good also.
Now there will be a sequel yet to (3) but it didn't come out in full yet.
All in all, Perumov is my second favorite fantasy writer (not counting Tolkien). The first one is a Polish author - Andrzey Sapkowski. He has a wonderful series called "Wiedzmak - Âåäüìàê". Sorry, don't know the english name.

 

And to everybody else. Yes, I see where my mistake was. That quote is better off in Middleearth (LOTR), and not in D&D.

 

In Middleearth all the other races have a mystical quality to them. In D&D these races live in the flesh. Heck even demons and devils live in the flesh!

As long as they live in the flesh, I think it is only human chauvinism to think that we'd be more successful than other races who are not stupid either.