Is God really upstairs?

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If you guys read "Preacher", God is an arrogant bastard, the creator of everything, the all powerful. And he wants his creation to love him, he feeds of this love, he craves for it. and he wants his creation to love him no matter what, so he wrecks havoc on their lives, to see if they still love him. Mr All powerful, God almighty, is just a bastard who created everything, has fun with it, plays with it, destroys lives, then punishes those who dont love him, rewards those that do. in that comic, i mean. so thats one view...

 

In CS Lewis's The Last Battle, which is set at the end of his imaginary world with its Last Judgement, Aslan (an allegory of Christ) meets one of the Calormenes, who has done good works all his life, but serving his own god Tash (an allegory of Satan). Aslan tells him that he will be welcome in heaven, because (I don't remember the exact quote) all the good deeds he did were taken by Aslan, and only evil deeds were taken by Tash, no matter whom he intended them for.
By that argument, you can see the Bible, and other religious teachings, as a guide for how to live your life well in the eyes of God. In the end it's up to you and your conscience how you should live - you don't need religious teaching, though it would help. And on the other hand, there are plenty of people who are firm religious "believers" and resolutely stick with carrying out deeds for Tash.

As to the argument with person A/B:
It's an important point of the Christian faith that whatever you have done, if you are truly repentant, then God will forgive you. It's no good just saying you are sorry - God knows whether you are or not. Some denominations believe in purgatory, where a person who committed sins, but truly wants to repent, must wait until they are "pure" enough to enter heaven. I don't know if I believe in that or not, but the idea that being truly sorry isn't just a get-out-of-jail-free card makes sense.
So, in the example given, I think both A and B would get into heaven, unless maybe A utterly rejected God when given the choice in the afterlife.

[This message has been edited by Maldir (edited August 28, 2001).]

 

The Chronicles of Narnia is great!

About the thing of person A and B... I don't totally agree with Maldir. You forget one thing. We never CAN be true repetants by ourself. We need to believe in Jesus, by his death (and believing in that) our sins are forgiven and we can do good things and some times even be true repetants by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The most important is that we can't deserve Grace by ourselves and also there are things about God we can't understand. Both things are sooooooo hard to accept for us, small humans who think we are so smart and we can prove anything etc..

 

ahh so by that rationel, I can go on a killing streak, rape women, lie, drink, and be violent. And if!! I somehow 1 year before I die, get a vision so trembling that I start to believe. And believe of whole my heart. And work god's will for the entire Year. Then I go to heaven. Because I cannot deserve grace. But!

This whole selection process is cool. As Arkados Blackmire so nicely stated. Who said anything about God beeing fair. Fair in the eyes of humans

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 28, 2001).]

 

True story . . . Jesus was hanging on the cross to die for our sins. Along with him, two thieves were being executed for their crimes. (Remember, crucifixion was reserved for only the worst criminals). One of the theives mocked Jesus. The other asked Jesus to take pity on him. Jesus replied that he would join Jesus that very day in Paradise.

What good work did this theif perform? What merit did he accrue to "earn" salvation? What documented afterlife choice did he make that set him apart from his companion and reserved him a slot in heaven?

The answer to all of the above is "NONE." All he did was admit that he was a sinner who needed help from Jesus and he was saved.

So, to answer the first question, YES, grace alone is enough to save us.

The second question . . . can we sin boldly and claim fogiveness despite what we do? God is a bit smarter than that. Grace is free, but it isn't cheap. Knowing what I know about Him, believing as I do, it is impossible for me to live that selfishly. Yeah, I rebel sometimes, I still mess up, I sin big and need grace.

 

I agree with Headbanger, it seems too easy that someone should just repent in their last year of life; that's why I said it shouldn't be a get out of jail free card.
On the other hand, God must want really badly to forgive us whatever we've done wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have sent his son to die on the Cross.
Jesus came to forgive everyone's sins, not just those of us who were quite good, but know we sinned once or twice, only that, nothing serious God, honest. In fact, he wants to forgive the serious sinner even more (think of the Prodigal Son). Whatever we've done wrong, if we seriously want to make it up to God he'll forgive us.
I think it's a situation some people might recognise - it's possible to love another person so much that however they hurt you, you would be willing to forgive them if they were sorry for it.

[This message has been edited by Maldir (edited August 28, 2001).]

 

Noblemen ---> A foolish method that would be! Do you know the hour of your death? What if you die suddenly, sooner then then you would expect. By the way, when you know God exist, how could you then wanna live in sin and say you will believe in God later. You think we have a less good life then someone who can do everything he wants? Christians has faith, and that makes our lifes way more easy, even in the darkest times. WHy would we still try to live in sin? God chose for us and relevated himself to us, and he works in ours hearts, so how could you then try to live in sin?

 

The Bible does NOT say anything about that only believers go to heaven.
Besides belief is something people either have or haven't. It's some sort of feeling.
I do not remember when, but one day I just *knew*. It is impossible to describe what
it is.

 

You have misunderstood me Headbanger.

I tried to clarify that I, in this example, was NOT turning religious from ulterior motives.

The fact that I die one Year after my TRUE and HONEST redemption is merly to state the fact that coming to heaven can be utterly unfair to those that are helpfull and kind all their lives but cannot convince him/herself to believe and won't get that *feeling*, and hence wont come to heaven. Its obviously about admitting ones "sins" that counts in christianity

But Mathetais has explained it all very nicely I have no more quarrels.

EDITED HERE:
Maldir You write

Then If Hitler, Seriously wanted to make it up,as You put it, he'll be forgiven.

by now I can actually see some dim logic far ahead in the horison with this "admit sin/heaven" thing. Nice Job (I am not beeing sarcastic actually)

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 29, 2001).]

 

i just had a thought... what about the people who live in the sahara? or the pigmys? what about the cannibals? they are born into a world where nobody informs them of jesus, of god. they live by their methods, whatever they may be. cannibals eat people as a way of life, no one has ever told them that it was wrong... what about them? didnt god create them that way? if they do not know god, and what god wants, then what is to happen to them? are they to go to hell?

 

When I at last consume one problem, another one arises. Well aint Life a bitch. Poor Pygmies.

I guess they go under Divine's *feelings*

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited August 29, 2001).]

 

I'm back.

Grace is unmerited by its very nature. If it were merited, it wouldn't be grace; it would be by your works. Mat, feel free to post Scripture on that (I'm Bible-less as usual). Paul talks about it quite a bit in Romans and other New Testament books.

Divine, the Bible states quite clearly that the ONLY way into heaven is by believing on Jesus Christ. And if you study the Bible, you'll also realize that that faith is by no means passive; it must be an active, living faith that manifests in actions. So although we are not saved BY our works, our salvation will be shown THROUGH our works.

True faith, as Sprite mentioned, is given by God. You can't just accept it intellectually; God must give it to you Himself. (Thus, "pray for faith...")

As for those who die never having heard the Word of God, I believe they are given a second chance in the afterlife. There is a Scripture on this (once again I don't know the reference off the top of my head; I think it's in 1 or 2 Peter) stating that after Jesus died and before He rose again, He went and preached to "souls that were in prison".

This is a bit rushed, as I have to leave, but I will follow up later.

 

Personally, I cannot imagine people who never heard about God, never had a remote oppurunity of hearing about God to even make a yes or no decision, of going to hell. Then again, the only way to heaven is through Jesus. My answer to this problem: Jesus intervenes for these people and they do in fact go to heaven. Why do I think this? Jesus came to establish a link with sinners and God, and died for all sinners on the cross only to rise again in 3 days. For everyone who has heard this, they either believe it or think it's whack. But for those who haven't for whatever reason must still go to heaven. It would not be fair if they didn't. Same concepts with babies and small children. Not being able to make the choice either because you can't comprehend it or it's never been presented to you is not something these people can be held accountable for.

 

Reminder to self . . . self - edit this post and write Romans 2 that says how God is known through nature so that none are without excuse. Then write a compelling argument!

(seriously, check back tomorrow, I have something about his on my other CPU)

EDIT -
Here is the long awaited information.

Romans 1:19-22

But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead

From Romans 2:5-14 . . .

For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning--for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good--for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.

Debriefing . . .
First, this is a clear statement that God will judge "Gentiles" (and for our discussion, people who have not heard the message of the Gospel) according to what they have done. Did they see God's glory revealed in nature, and act accordingly, or did they continue living selfishly?

Secondly, "Christians" will also be judged according to the goodness that they have done. Does this go againt my earlier statements that we are saved by grace through faith alone??? Nahhh! You have to read the whole thing in context. Other passages in this same letter specify what exactly needs to be done to be saved.

Romans 3:21-24
But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins.

One more . . . Romans 5

Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of highest privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God's glory. We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they are good for us--they help us learn to endure.

Heh, the last one sounds a bit like Drakkan from PS:T. Have faith, and by believing you shall Endure. Endure, and by enduring grow strong.

That last one also explains why I ramble on about this so much and why my faith consumes me. I want everyone to have this same peace, the same ability to rejoice.

[This message has been edited by Mathetais (edited August 29, 2001).]

 

I think it wierd, just to think that life was created by one single entity. I don't believe a centralized management could even uphold life for more than ten minutes, let alone devellop it over eons.
(true believers: please don't take insult in the wierd)

 

Nobleman:

- When you really REALLY feel sorry for what you have done in your entire life and really believe that Jesus dies for your sins, and you tell that to God, you can even be saved in the last seconds of your life, not only in the last year. (the story of the criminal that hang beside Jesus show's that. Yes his Mercy is great!

Something about that in 2 Corinthians 5:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the miistry of reconciliation, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting mens sins against them. And he has commited to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin (isaiah 53) for us, so we might become the righteousness of God

And there's also in the Bible: Everybody who says with the mouth, and truly believes with his heart that Jesus is Lord, he already has life for eternity! And that even counts when you do so a few seconds before you dies.


Silroth:

Why do you think that God couldn't do that? Then you compare God with a human??? We can't, but we are so small and can do so less compared with God. He can create the world and also he upholds it already for ages... For he is not like us but he is beyond what we can understand. We can understand how God is and what he can for only a very small part. The problem is we, smart people we think we are, think that we can understand and prove anything with our technology etc. And what we can't prove or understand, we won't believe. That mistake do you made and many others too.

Paul writes something about how great God is in Romans 11:33-36 (based on isaah and Job)

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his cousellor?
Who has ever given God, that God should repay him?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory for ever! Amen.


Math:

Thanks for the info. I already knew some about this, there's also somewhat about this in our Dutch Confirmation of Faith article, but didn't hear this clear explanation jet.

There's something more about this in the bible. An excellent thing is Psalm 19 for example:

The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech; night ofter night they display knowlegde.
There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

This declares some of how we can see God by looking at the nature. The world is a beautiful book, and all things God created are letters. Together the letters create words and the words create a story, about how mighty God is. Just like in a book, where the words aren't just words, but the words together create a story, also the billions parts of the nature create one whole story.

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited August 29, 2001).]

 

The bible is in english. i say god is racist. haha, ok on to better arguments...
So...all your beliefs are by and by, based on one thing, the bible. the argument that good and bad is an inborn instinct does not stand, for if we all know that something is good, or evil, then we need not need a court of law. we merely require a priest. we need not have long arguments and debates, for we all know who is right. i think u get my gist. So in the end, the way u live, the RIGHT u stand by, the WRONG u consider evil, is either from the bible, or is relative to who u are, where u are born, the society u live in, etc etc...am i wrong to say that? U consider eating a human wrong. a cannibal says its a way of life. u cannot in all honesty tell me that the cannibal, deep in his heart feels that what he is doing is wrong. so who is right? the bible will judge, yes?
So... what if, the bible really was written by a man not in anyway connected to god? faith? in the bible? or in god?

 

Side Note & Question . . . .

I have an engagement to preach this Sunday morning. If you all could hear a sermon/bible talk on any relevent topic, what would it be?

 

The Bible has become the basis for so many arguments on wether or not God exists, wether or not he is merciful etc.
This is my opinion on the bible:

The Bible was written by a few men. All of whom had nearly the exact same belief. They also wrote the Bible many years after the death of Christ.
Surely then this group of men who all have the same belief could also have all been wrong. We base almost the entire Christian religion on the words of a few.
This is ludicrusy.
So my point is that maybe we are looking at God in the wrong light. Maybe he is merciful to those who just don't believe but are still good. I did not start this topic to debate what the bible thinks of god but what you think of him.

Point 2
Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe WE are wrong. Maybe it is Allah who is looking down on us now. Or maybe by typing this i am screwing up my chances of getting to Nirvana.

 

A few men wrote the Bible many years after the death of Christ? What about the Old Testament? That's the larger half of the Bible, and written before Christ.