On Goths, real Goths, death and black

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So, recently, in the Random Babbling Post we've had some prolonged chatter about Goths. Are you? Or is he? Etc etc. The following site: http://blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html came into mention and people began to notice they were Goth. How surprising. According to a veteran and self-proclaimed defender of Gothic orthdoxy, these here points signify a strong chance of your being Goth:

• You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)
• Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange
• You like museums and cultural centers
• You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes
• You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either
• You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds
• You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)
• You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV
• You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know
• You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you
• You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers
• You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own
• You don't just reject something because you don't understand it
• You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like
• You are not afraid of the unknown
• You are not afraid of the dark
• You are afraid of mediocrity

In accordance to above, I'm a pureblood. I don't even have to mention that I'm exceptionally intelligent, overwhelmingly wise and deeply insightful, let alone magnificently creative . Oh well, but how pity I don't feel any urgent need to be myself. In truth do I say, I don't care. Express myself? Express thoughts, emotions, feelings. But express oneself? As grass is green, that is ridiculous. To express myself sounds more or less as correct as to express a hung-over male Indian elephant with a pink true lover's knot tied on his head and a thorn in the rear.

What's even worse, I'm not strongly inclined to associate. In fact, I'm quite sick of groups and subcultures and sick to death of movements. I'd rather just sit at my PC desk.

Then goes black. Yea, it has some special touch. Black and white. A little hint of red or in the direction of red also serves well. At parties, I tend to appear in cuffed black trousers and a half-unbuttoned white French-cuffed shirt with silver cufflinks over a black turtleneck blouse. Anyway, I do dress "as I damn well please", then again, I don't really strive to dress as I damn well please. I just dress as I dress and let's leave it at that.

Perhaps I even have the infamous fixation on death. Have you read my poems? There are only two in English and both are here in CS, so you probably have. You may refer to there for a definition of fixation on death.

And may Saint Caffeine save me from Romantics, both old and New alike. And everything New starting with a capital "n".

Apparently, I'm actually not Goth. What about you? Well, and perhaps you would also like to share some other thoughts. Well, do.

[ January 05, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

That list basically, with the exception of entry 2 ("Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange") describes *everyone* who is currently or has taken a fine arts or liberal arts degree

That makes a lot of goths.

Actually, I take issue with this one: "You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know"

Most goths I know, look just like each other.

 

That list was written by a Goth, a rather self-important and pretentious one at that. This basically says, "If you're more artistic, sophisticated, intelligent and misunderstood than everyone else, then you're a Goth."

Here's my list, according to my impression of almost every "goth" I've ever met in person, which is quite a few. I used to live in Utah, which is crawling with Goths.

• I wear black, black, and more black.
• I dye my hair black and wear eye shadow.
• I hate you.
• Robert Smith is god. You don't understand him like I do.
• I listen to Skinny Puppy, Sisters of Mercy, and other bands who's names freak out my parents.
• No, really...I hate you.
• I think carving things into my arm with a razor blade is a perfectly healthy form of self expression.
• I'm selectively malnourished.
• I'm not a sheep, like you.
• I hang out in coffee shops and scribble poetry about how much life sucks.
• The Crow is the best movie ever.
• You couldn't possibly fathom the depths of my blackened, tortured soul. And if you do...I love you.
• I wish I lived in a Tim Burton movie. Except the tretcherous "Big Fish." Only one calorie, not Goth enough.
• I've had dental vampire fangs made for me, which I wear every day except Halloween.
• Did I mention I hate you?

No Chev, you're not a Goth.

 

are you people serious??? the whole "goth" thing is for people who just can't get along with normal society.

 

Hmmm... Sounds like the list was made by someone who figured the world would be nicer if there were more goths and gothettes around. He could start a 'goth organisation', and use the phone book as a member list.

 

There's as much definitions being goth as there are goths... oh, wait. If we follow all the definitions, there is no spo... goths.

But hey... not getting along with normal society is a GOOD thing.

If you disargree with me, you're stupid.
(j/k)

 

According to Chev, that would make me a Goth, except I'm nowhere near being a Goth, I'm nothing put a stoner punk/skateboarder/hockey player.

 

I'm often accused of being a Goth. but I don't see how.

• I wear black a lot - yeah? So? I don't like fashion, despise pink and don't like things that show off too much.
• I like weaponry - yeah... so do a lot of people on here, they aren't goths
• I like silver/gothic jewelry - wost of it is like weaponry... or shiny
• I write morbid poems, stories, lyrics and the how - not all the time... just most of it...
• Nobody understands me - yeah right, some people understand me, most people don't because I'm weird/different from most people at school or whatever
• I don't give a damn - Everyone has times when they just don't care
• Why bother? - somes things I just don't bother with, fashion, boring work, etc, why bother? it will only change or stop. I'm self conscious - but don't give a damn what I wear (PINK/SHORT - NO WAY). And what is ahe point of doing something so dull and pointless? Someone else who sees the point of it can do it instead.

I don't see how that makes me a goth

 

The Crow is an awesome movie!





Goth or not, just let people be. Every social stereotype is annoying, be it redneck jocks, inbred hicks, gen y-ers, mathematical nerds, christian fundamentalists with no brains etc, etc. Less than ten posts are in and I already see goth bashing.

Pretentious? This label is not exclusive to 'goths'. I've known a few morons who quote from a truly idiotic book with 5 letters in its title, begins with a 'b' and ends with an 'e', take the myths inside as truth, act all high and mighty and self-righteous while oppressing the views of others. And they think that they're so 'intelligent' and 'enlightened' because of it.

Therefore goths = group mentioned above as far as pretentiousness is concerned. Of course, goths do not force their views on others as much as that group.

Besides, makeup in the form of dark eyeshadow and lipstick, etc is far more presentable to the eye than bulging bloodshot eyes and foam at the corner of the mouth.

Live and let live, people. [Of course, if I've offended any particular group with my last statement, remember, according to you, I'm going to burn in hell for eternity so take some consolation in that fact.]

 

@Benanthalin: it's according to that guy, not me

Apparently, all the best in the world of art is Goth

What the guy keeps saying, looks like "The real Goths aren't really all that Goth, you see. And those that are very Goth aren't really Goths. Just take my word on that we're fine guys.".

And then I go take a look at the rest of his site. What do I see? Well, just see yourselves. Goooth-ness!

I'm exaggerating a bit, for the purpose of fun, of course (just so no one thinks I'm actually bashing a group I'm not bashing at a given moment ). The guy does have some valid points, it's only his attitude and the way he presents them. As a history ubergeek (you have to take my word on all grades & honours ) and a freelance artist's son, I wonder how much they know about the real Gothic. Granted, some of them have degrees where appropriate but this can't be said about the whole movement. Not that I care strongly, it just amuses me a bit, earning a cynical smile.

For some people, apparently, writing a morbid poem makes you an expert in Gothic mystique. How the world is simple

Back to the stereotyping, though. Let's have some fun

[ January 05, 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Let's simplify the thing to: "If you're smart and cool like us, then you're one of us. And if so, we can get together sometime and say how not smart and not cool people not like us are."

(Okay, I guess I'm not making much of a point agreeing with pretty much everyone here. )

 

I'm in the process of searching for another site I found whilst researching the Gothic subculture some time ago for obscure reasons. There are a multitude of websites on the subject, with most of the Goths agreeing with each other on what is and what is not Goth, with only the critics taking the stereotype to its extreme.

Here is one site, not the one I was actually looking for... http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

Hmm, wadda ya know? Another site which is still not the one I'm looking for... http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

Ah hah! Here it is: http://www.whitefantom.com/goth/

*Wonders vaguely if he is taking this thread too seriously, but seeing that everyone else seems to be as well, it looks fine*

So seeing that these people are consistent with their views, they may just all know what they're talking about when they call themselves Goth, and not just be people twisting the stereotype to suit their own idea.

Cease your Goth bashing, follow the logic of Shura.

[ January 06, 2004, 11:15: Message edited by: Aikanaro ]

 

The so-called 'Goth" culture (I say so-called because they call themselves that, while having actually very little to do with even one of the Germanic Tribes, let alone any of the Goths) is mostly about negativity, it shows itself everywhere, you can sense it radiating off them.

Sure, some, or even many, may be intelligent or insightful or whatever, but they are unsure how to react to this in their situation, so they lash out, at others and themselves. Typically with Hate and Melancholy, Depression, Angst, or more commonly, feigned Apathy. They may have more of an understanding of some things than those they call out, but it is not complete, and this is evident in their behaviour, the enactment of thought. As I said before, it can be sensed from talking with one anyway.

They talk about Metaphysical ideals, yet root themselves in the Material or Physical through their actual beliefs, thoughts, and actions. They may know they are doing the wrong thing at heart, and I'm sure that with about 80% it's mostly an act and they don't feel or think that way at all, they just pretend they do because it is their way of distancing themselves from what they dislike. But they have grown to dislike things too much, hence the negativity, and they really offer no solutions to their problems.

That's the main point, only despondancy (which is no surprise), no true desire or will for change, be it themselves or others. They truly are closer to those they say they despise, that is, putting on an act to impress others or fit in with their peers (whether another would say he is impressed is irrespective, irregarded, it is the correct reaction they are looking for, it is themselves they wish to impress) talking about things they don't understand (this irks me, given the subject matter), obsession with baser ideals (the fashion and clothing obsession, the violent thoughts, etc).

The black clothing helps with this. Black absorbs all the surrounding psychical energy, and this is usually what has been discarded, that is, peoples negative, melancholy, or violent thoughts, and it also prevents them from letting go of their own harboured resentments. In itself black clothing (or even thinking about the colour black enough) will work in the opposite direction to metaphysical ideals, it is the opposite, that is what it is.

I won't go into a big description here of the effects of various colours. Suffice it to say I can no longer wear black, It blurs and fuzzes my thinking and perceptions, makes it difficult to concentrate, feels out of phase physically. I only wear white clothing, very occasionally blue or even rarer grey, the other colours are rare indeed.

Now, I don't have anything against anyone who may call themselves such, just as I do not hold anything against any other person who's ideals differ to my own -as much as I may dislike them for it- it is simply where they are here and now, we all play our parts. Once you understand where these people are coming from, you can relate to them with further ease.

Edit: I wanted to add some clarification here. It is no doubt that when I say violent thoughts some of you may think I mean violent behaviour, or a wish to do violence, this is not the case, I mean anger- the root cause. This can also be passive-aggression. This is non-violence physically, but it is just as rooted in anger as the other, and can do as much damage to the enactor.

The problem with Goths is they are smart, yet not wise enough. They are to me more intelligent in ways than most, but they do not temper this knowledge, this understanding, with any behaviour rational to wisdom. they preach, yet they do little, and as I said, act in very similar ways, yet through different vehicles or media, a different source or output of the same basic thought-forms, than those they look down upon. Less materialistic perhaps, but no movement upwards, only sideways.

It is a shame that such insight, however limited, is wasted, and little or no ground is gained. But it takes time, and is a slow process. They have began to awake in their own way, the same as many others have also began the same process. I simply do not believe a 'Goth' would look at those others in the same light as they see themselves. This is an important point to mention.

[ January 06, 2004, 12:13: Message edited by: Manus ]

 

I agree Manus with your point on black clothing, i now have an excuse for performing less well at school then usual, the school uniform is completley black, almost, apart from the shirt which is white.

Anyway, back to the point about Goths hating "sheep", if they hate them so much, why are they becoming sheep themselves, by following what each other does etc... they are now sheep themselves so should try to steer away from the course they have chosen, yet they dont so they have already contradicted there faith.

 

*ponders whether anyone looked at his links at all, for he cannot recall any point in which anyone said that Goths as a whole hated 'sheep'.*

Saying so would be a massive generalisation, and I would like to know where you heard about this anti-sheepness...

 

Well according to Chev's sources, I think everybody would be considered a Goth.

 

Wow, you have an interesting view of humanity. The amount of people I know who would willingly write something creative on their own free will (IRL) is pitiously small. May even fit on one hand.

 

Well, from your link Aikanaro, it does indeed suggest quite a strong resentment for the rest of humanity, never does it refer to them as sheep, but the passive agressive stance is there.

It insinuates that everyone else cannot fathom that (sic) their lives are hopeless, that they have been brainwashed into becoming 'clean-cut suburbanites' and that everyone who doesn't like 'Goths' does so because they are either afraid or ignorant. The site I read is well worded, and it may indeed be subversive enough to seem innocent, but the inuendo is there and painfully obvious, as is the attitude I have come across with each of these individuals whom I have met. Another's faults does not make you superior, you may only be superior through your own merit.

There is definate disdain for those who are not like themselves, they are viewed as somehow less intelligent, the author refers to her own culture in an exceedingly elitist manner, and to all others as a misguided foolish mass.

Now this is interesting as you have done the same thing. You say, that you could count the amount of people who could write something creative of their own free will on one hand, and yet you are at a place where many such examples exist. All these folk who are not necessarily trying desperately to actively and repeatedly display their disdain and rebellion from society, in a manner, if not designed, than in the fore-knowledge that it can, or will, be interpreted as offensive, nor who adopt a secular or elitist frame of mind, nor who have a pre-occupation with the macrebre and death. This is to me what seperates Goths from those others, not their 'tortured artistic genius'. Acceptance is not a constant refferal, nor a seeming obsession, it is acceptance. If you met someone constantly writing pornographic novels, watching such movies and reading such magazines, and discussing carnal acts repeatedly, you would think they had a pre-occupation, not an acceptance.

Goths aren't the only ones with two braincells to rub together, and for a group who claims such intelligence, acts of immaturity, despite the actions of others -who may act the exact same way, I do not deny this, but it is no excuse- are duly considered. These kids need to grow up. I have said before that many of their views may have merit, but their actions do not.

Just remember the one who wrote that surprisingly flattering list was hosted on a domain called 'blood-dance'.

There are better ways to act upon a disagreement, more productive ways of making of point. Effective ways to try and improve oneself, instead of indulging your own aesthetic and idealistic notions, without seeming to take any of those ideals further than the point of chastising your neighbour.

I don't have anything against them, truth be told it's more likely they have something against me, but I sympathise, empathise, I do, but that doesn't change a thing. These kids, they may hold themselves aloof from the pettiness they see below them, and I commend them for it, but they need to remember that they're no higher than anyone else, and there are a lot of others who do the same thing. All will, in time.

Edit: I only came here because I thought it was about said 'real goths' -obviously not completely, but to at least a signifigant extent; I hope I haven't side-tracked it too far, or made the conversation too serious. If I have, forgive me, and I shall desist lest it be moved to the AoDA.

 

Hmm, probably wouldn't be too bad an idea to have this moved to the AODA, it is far too full of America threads. A random debate pulled from the depths of no where might make it slightly more interesting.

No one I can recall in any of the sites I linked said anything at all about their lives being hopeless, nor that anyone was being brainwashed. Maybe they have good reason for believing that people don't generally like Goths because of fear or ignorance, the Sunlight in the Shadows site shows many examples of Goths being discriminated against, so maybe it's the Goths that are stereotyping in this case. Those who do not like them must be afraid of ignorant, because of the actions of a few. All Goths must be psychotic killers, because of the actions of a few.

I noticed that they focussed more on what they were good at then how sucky everyone else was, putting emphasis on the fact that they enjoyed writing and whatnot else, rather than on that other people can't/don't do.

Mayhap you should see Shura's earlier post. It includes pretty much every other culture and religion in existence. If you did not think that yours was the best, you would hardly be there now, wouldn't you? Not that I really noticed so much of that, but I'm refering to the Sunlight in the Shadows page, maybe you are refering to the other one? Or am I seriously missing something here?

For the next section, did you not notice the 'IRL' in brackets (meaning In Real Life). I was simply rebutting a comment which seemed very wrong, after all, if I can only count that many people, then not everyone is Goth.

I also don't think that the rebellion thing is a necessary part of it all. The quiz didn't mention rebellion (not even in a cleverly phrased way) to my knowledge. If it did, quote it.

If people wish to write things which could be interpretated as offensive, then that is their business. A lot of people refer to death a lot in their writings, by your standards are they all elitist rebels? I suppose there goes most of the writing market under the label of 'elitist rebel obsessed with death'. (Though I may have misinterpreted what you said, not sure)

Which specific actions are you refering to? Not everyone needs to be like everyone else, if people want to wear all black on a regular basis, why should anyone care, and how can that be seen as immature (just assuming you wer refering to that, as you didn't specify anything)

Hmm, nice, catchy domain name, would you not agree?


Eh, I think that's enough ranting for the moment. A pity, I do like making long posts which will be swatted down the next time someone else comes along. Need more non-political threads in the AODA...

 

Read Death Rabbits post where he mentions what the Goth check list should be and you will see where i got the sheep idea from.