Who Has Reason to Own (& Use) a Gun?

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An excurs first:
Comparing the weimar republic´s constitution to the one we have now you might note a difference:
Our actual Constitution isn´t as free as the old one in some parts for a simple reason - the freedom given by the weimar constitution was used by anti-democrats like hitler to fight this very democracy.
Additionally, this fully democratic republic wasn´t accepted by it´s population after the end of WW-I and for several reasons including the armistice conditions.

Considering germany´s last 50 years, I think that lesson is now learned.

However, I don´t understand in which way widespread private weapon ownership in germany would have changed the tide of history towards democracy in the 1920´s to 1930´s, except in the number of politically motivated homicides.

If I understand both of you right - Sir Bel and jester - the point your argument seems point at, is that an armed population is a good and necessary counterweight for the monopoly of the use of force held by the government, right?

I don´t understand why. How can unrestricted private gun ownership stabilize democracy?

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited May 31, 2001).]

 

Inherent distrust of the central government, despite its democratic leanings dictates the necessity of owning weapons. That's what our country was born on, that's why we'll always have them.

Have you ever seen the bumper sticker: "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead hand"? We are very funny when it comes to disarming the populous.

 

we don't have "unrestricted" gun ownership.
far from it.
1) all my guns are registered.
2) it's almost impossible to transport a firearm across most state lines legally.
3) MANY types of weapons are restricted or outlawed here, and that list grows daily.
4) in most states, to legally transport a gun it must be unloaded, and the ammo and weapon must be stored seperatly(sp) in locked containers (I.E. trunk or locked hard case) which are innacessable to the driver.
5) most states have laws making gun owners responsible for crimes commited with one of their guns if it is stolen. those laws unfortunatly are not enforced.

Do you really not see how 6 million armed european jews would have changed the picture?
Or how a WELL ARMED resistance in occupied europe would have made it impossible for control to be maintained?

Imagine how different crsytalnocht(sp?) would have been if all those shop keepers had been armed.

Part of it is that our nation wouldn't exist if the colonist hadn't been armed. None of us will ever forget that.

 

I´m not sure that you know what you´re talking about when bringing the holocaust in this discussion ...
However, I will kindly contribute some thoughts to an ever fertile "what would have happened if ..." type discussion:

Would the medieval witches have been armed properly, they would have never been burned and would the indians have been armed properly, they´d surely never been eradicated or been driven into the deserts or the forrests of north america.

And yes, would have the blacks been armed properly, they´d never been enslaved either. And properly armed high school teachers would have certainly stopped the occasional shootings there quickly.

I think the whole history is basically a question of the appropiate weaponry, an arms race all over the centuries. You have to fight evil, with force and better weapons! It´s all so simple ...

Have you ever considered what would have happened when the shopkeepers in LA would have been armed properly during the last big riots? Maybe the would have shot some 40 people to defend their property - well, vigilance is the price for freedom ... every home a barricade of wagons in the last stand ...


History is a nice thing to remember but since times in fact *do* change, people who live in the past are most likely fools (no insult intended). No one is demanding to forget about the old days and the colonists - but do you need a firearm to do so?

btw - the problem isn´t that the people don´t register their weapons - it´s that the registration isn´t linked with a person check, the proof of knowledge and stuff like that. Jester, I am not criticising you for having a gun - that´s irrelevant here and who am I to judge your need to have one.

It´s that *almost everyone* (if he needs one or not) can get a gun - not more, not less. Yes, there are restrictions in the US, but look at them: Are they a real obstacle in buying a weapon?

 

In Britain we have had one major shooting incident in a decade (Not including Northern Ireland). It happened in Dumblane in Scotland and although all of you probably know what happened i will tell you once more.
A nutcase went into a primary school with a gun and shot dead 7 (i think) 5 year old children and their teacher.
After this appaling incident there was a nation wide protest to ban guns.

Horrific though it was the Dunblane disaster was a one off occurance due to a totally mentally disabled man who in most probability had no idea what he was doing was wrong.(he shot himself at the scene by the way). And to be totally honest i would have not been angry at him because no human being would have done something like that for no reason if they had total control over their own body.

Since then guns (apart from air guns) have banned.
Since then there have been other types of incidents. A man went into a church two years ago and started slicing old age people up with a samuri sword. It happened again one year ago aswell. Now some people are campaigning to have swords banned.

A couple of months ago a young child was shot in the head with an air rifle. It was a pure accident and the child has recovered but now there is a campaign against air pistols. I own an air pistol and i only ever get it out to have fun with shooting at targets. Just because someone got accidently shot does not give anyone the right to take my gun from me.

So now i launch my campaign.

A couple of years ago someone was kiled by an attacker weilding a kitchen knife.

I would like the government to ban Kitchen knifes

A couple of days ago an old lady tripped up on a jagged paving slab.

I would like the government to ban paving slabs and replace them with soft woolen carpet.

A few years ago someone was chucked from a window by a mob.

I would like the government to bar up all windows

In fact just to be safe i would like the entire country to be rid of anything mildy dangerous!

This is ridiculous isn't it. It does not matter how big the incident is. The principal is the same. The fact is that s**t happens and sometimes we just have to let it happen. This is the price we pay for living in a left wing democracy.

One more example: A young child got killed by dingos on Fraiser island in Australia. Now the Goverment has forced the rangers to murder a large amount of Dingos on the island.
I am truly saddend that that child was killed but the dingos knew no better. They were eating just another animal as far as they knew. Trying to survive.
I was outraged by this. As far as i am concernd any human weather they be a child or a fully grown man is equal to a dingo. The fact is that they are animals too and they do not deserve to be slaughtered just for eating prey which they have to do to survive.

You may find my opinions those of a right winger but that is your opinion. Personally i think that we live in a unfair violent world which we cannot change. I am not a facist i am a realist.

 

Come on, banning all weapons was a populistic over-reaction, no doubt. But a limited access to a thing made for killing only woudn´t be that bad an idea ...

That other violent things are happening here and there with dangerous things other than guns is obvious - and as I fear unavoidable.

 

As I stated before, I firmly agree that anyone making a first time gun purchase should be required to take a 6 hour safety course. Anyone purchasing a fire arm of a type they have not previously owned should be required to take a one hour course to familiarize themselves with that particular weapon.

Well, we can agree to dis-agree. I've read quite a bit about the holocaust, and as far as I'm concerend I am dead on about that one.
I'm not saying no one would have died, that the entire thing would have been impossible. I'm just saying it would have been a HELL of alot more costly, especialy in a nation already engaged in a two front war.

To all those who say it couldn't happen here...america invented concentration camps. We called them reservations. We just never went as far as building ovens and gas chambers.

I'm not kidding when I say that the reason I own guns is to resist my own government should it become necessary. I'm not a militia member or anything like that. I think that right now we are along way from that point, and I hope that we never reach it.

"Bragging about being accurate with a modern rifle is something akin to being accurate with a disposable cigarette lighter"-Kurt Vonnegut...he got the highest possible score for an army shooter by the way

I much perfer my bows for recreation. In some counties my crossbow would be illegal.
I think it's more important to adress the underlying issues in american society than look for a quick fix. Fewer homes than ever before have guns in them, and I'd wager those guns are less accesable than ever. I don't think anyone in the fifties used trigger locks or kept their guns in safes, but school yard shootings didn't happpen back then.

Also, and I think this is an important point, I think handguns are a completely different issue than rifles and shotguns. They have very limited use as military weapons and over 95% of gun crimes are commited with them. I do think they should be more highly regulated.

I also believe our background checks need to be better done. That is happening tho, our government is spending millions updating the computer system that runs those checks. The days of signing a paper saying you're not a felon are long gone.

As a side note, due to recent gun laws passed in los angeles county, possesion of the pistols used in olympic compition are now banned. Our gun laws need to be better written and nationaly standardized.

 

no you didnt use gas chambers and such, you just killed their women and children by giving them blankets infected with deadly viruses that killed them.

 

I carry around a bloody M16 assualt rifle day in, day out. With it slung across my back, shoulders or neck, propped against my body when I sit and beside the urinal when I go to take a piss. Every time I walk past a rubbish bin, I get an overwhelming urge to hurl the damned thing in. I hate guns. Why can't people rely on a good old sword?

 

Watch the use of the word "you"

That actually happened only once, intentionaly.
Little help is needed during winter when you pack people used to regularly moving (I.E., people who havent developed modern sanatation habits due to their mobility) into small areas and don't feed them.

Plenty of their women and where children killed out right. It's a shamefull part of american history. But it doesn't have much to do with the gun ownership question.

[This message has been edited by jester1137 (edited June 02, 2001).]

 

I don't think the accessibility of guns should be such a big issue. It's all the about the people who use them. I know it's kind of cheesy but the line "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." has a lot of truth behind it.

In America, if you want to drive a car but you don't have a license, it's not hard to do so. It's just a matter of getting caught.
The same thing with a gun, if you don't have a license you can find one and use it, just make sure you don't get caught.

To sum it up, if someone really wants a gun they are going to get one.
If someone really wants to use one they are going to do so.

 

Clearly you have a problem over in the US. I was switching through some TV-channels yesterday, and I came over a documentary from US schools. One school hired this guy who was specialized at making the school safe from students and other crazy peeps with guns. What a sick country, I say to myself.

 

Our problems run alot deeper than just gun ownership. The Oklahoma City bombing killed 250 people and was done with fertilizer bomb that could be made in any country in the world. (they do sell diesel and fertilizer in most countrys )

Also, part of it is a matter of profile. American news seems to be international news.
The only reason I heard about that nut in scotland a few years back who mowed down all those kids is because I heard a British politician talking about it on C-span at 3am our time.

To tell you the truth, I am amazed how much people in other nations know about us, and by how many mis-conceptions they have. alot of people seem to think buying a handgun in the US is like buying a candy bar. It's far from the truth.

[This message has been edited by jester1137 (edited June 06, 2001).]

 

All right kiddies, sit back and relax:

First. The Columbine incident. Those kids broke over a hundred gun laws just by carrying those weapons. Huh. So much for gun laws.

Second. I have quite a few friends from Canada. They all say that the gun laws are complete bull. They also say that the Canadian laws are inforced...36% of the time.

Third. It's true. Banning guns will only take guns away from the law abiding citizens.

Fourth. Registration is enforced, and background checks are done to ensure legal/safe use. It took my brother a month to get his 30/30. I'd almost consider doing it the illegal way. Quicker, and less paper work.

Fifth. Guns are not just for killing. I target practice with my rifles and have yet to kill a single living creature (unless it was too small to see). I'm a Civil War re-enactor. I'll bet that re-enacting battles with copper tubes and clubs would be really fun. Really.

If guns were ever banned, I'd bury mine in the backyard with plenty of ammunition.

 

just have to bring this up sorry...
8 children where stabbed to death in a japanese school the other day.

Gun ownership and societal violence just aren't really related issues. sorry to use a tragedy to illustrate the point.

 

Acctually, I´ve been in jail. My friend shot his friend in the leg and I was there watching. Since I didn´t do anything to stop it happening, they thought that I also should go to jail.
But here in sweden it was only for six months. It was worse for my friend who had to sit through jail 1 1/2 years.
But still, that´s much to little prisontime.

I´m totally against guns and everything that has to do with them. They are the works of the Devil ...

 

Well basically in America if you forbid the normal people using normal as a broad term the people who shouldnt have guns will end up with guns anyhow. Thats why you have no revocation of 2nd amendment or other laws revoking guns privileges. Those who shouldnt will those who cant should.
EZ as that

i didnt bother to read all 2 pages of this so dont get p@@@ed if i infringed on what someone said earlier