hit points?

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hello, I've just started another game this time with my mage/thief and jaheira along ( something I tend to keep in BG2 as well and hopefuly this time I will be able to finish the game without having another party idea)

here's what I find really odd, I never looked into the hit points before as my main characters usually has a con of 10 or so, but this time I thought I would spent at least some points in con, therefore my elf has a con of 14.

now we just cleared the nashkel mines, so currently I'm level m3/t4 and I have 16 hit points?!
that's just wrong! I mean jaheira is f3/d3 and has 35 hit points. I know she's a fighter and has better con but ever since I leveled up as a mage I also level up as a thief at the same time and the maximum hit points I get is 4. shouldn't I get 4 per single class or something like that?

or am I totally confusing things? someone please enlighten me,thanx!

 

Multi-class HP is divided. When you level up as a multi-class character, the die you roll for that level is divided by the number of classes you have. So when you level up as both, you roll a d6 (for the thief level) and a d4 (for the mage level), and the sum gets divided by two. So the maximum hit points you would get for both combined would be 5. Jaheira, OTOH, rolls a d10 for her fighter levels or a d8 for her druid levels, with her CON bonus of +3 added to each one. The result is then halved, but that's still 6.5 maximum HP per fighter level and 5.5 maximum HP per druid level.

Bonuses to HP from CON are quite different in 2e than 3e. For example, your 14 CON...means squat. You get no bonus or penalty from any CON score between 6 and 14, and the maximum HP your M3/T4 would have would actually be 18. 15 gets you +1/level, 16 gets you +2/level, and farther up gives you more only if you are a warrior class. See your manual or Dan Simpson's 2e FAQ for further details.

[ July 12, 2006, 10:43: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

damn. now I wish I would spend those points on strenght, at least she could do more damage

I mean I have a fun party but I don't think I ever had a main character that would die as much as she does

I guess things will be better in BG2, strenght enchanting items galore, but by that time her spell selection will be far more interesting. Hmmm perhaps I'll restart the game and make another roll. so how low can my con be without penalty? 10? 8?

 

As I said before, 6 is as low as you can go without penalties. And just a heads up: you don't get extra damage from STR until 16 either. I'd also like to refer you once again to the manual, specifically the handy tables on pages 134 & 136 near the back of the book. (I've even begun looking at them rather than my PHB due to handiness.)

 

thank you fel, as my manual is on the disc I rarely refer to it

btw according to the manual con of 7 is the lowest one can have to avoid the penaly and con of 6 gives a HP adjustment of -1. or is this misprinted?

anway as I hadn't progrssed much in the game I decided to start over. I fancy the part where khalid puts on that unindetified belt and jaheira decides to let him behind untill he
solves his little problem

edit:
str 18
dex 19
con 8
int 18
wis 8
cha 18

I think I managed a nice roll

 

Ah yes, I suppose it's not quite as handy on the media as it is in print. And no, that's not a misprint, just a misread by yours truly. My mistake.

 

Yeah it's a pain in the arse when the manual comes on the disk. It's much handier to have a paper copy so that you can actually look something up without quitting the game.

I do have a question on multiclasses however. What strategy does the game implement as far as rounding is concerned? For two class multiclasses, it's a pretty easy calculation for all characters except if they have a constitution of 15 or 17 (like Jaheira). How are the halves calculated? For a three class multiclass, things appear to get really complicated as it seems like you'd always have fractions.

For example, if you have create a new F/M/T, how much does each class contribute to starting hitpoints (I'm looking for the actual numbers - I know that each class contributes 1/3 but how many hitpoints does that work out to)? Assume no consitution bonus for ease of calculations.

 

Constitution bonusses are divided equally between classes.
When you get a half constitution point it is saved and when you would get another half point at the next level up you get a full one.
I guess it's the same with triple class characters.

A FMT without con bonus should get (10+4+6)/3 =6.66.. HP per level but I'm sure you don't get more than a total 6, no matter how you mix up levelling.
The max available HP are probably splitted 3+1+2.
So there are no half points at level up which are saved.

If you want to test this you can use the console and try a few level ups after you have installed a maxHP mod.


@TimTim:
mage/thief is a class which gets very low HP, even at the 89,000 XPCap your M6/7T can't have more than 33 HP.
And you only get that many HP if you reload anytime you don't get the maximum points at level up (or use a maxHP mod) , 22 HP are realistic without.

I would create a M/T with 16 con, so you get 2 extra HP per level up, 35 instead of 22 is quite a difference.
You can set wisdom down to 3 without penalty, the manual is wrong.
Strength isn't that important as long as you can carry your gear. The level 2 mage spell grants 18/50 strength if cast once, 18/00 if cast twice.

I guess your first character was better, since you can find a book in the game which grants +1 con. With 15 con you have +1 HP/level bonus.
You can find a book in chapter6 which gives +1 strength and a bug in BG allows to raise strength from 18 straight to 19 when you use it, ignoring th 18/.. values. But +50 percent more HP are more useful IMHO.
With a little patience at creation you can get 3 wis, at least 15 con and the rest maxed out if you want both advantages.

 

I understand that much, but I guess my question is do you actually get 6 or 7 hitpoints as a level 1 character? It depends on where the rounding takes place. The way you have outlined it here, it would round to 7.

However, taken individually you would have:

Fighter 10/3 = 3.33
Mage 4/3 = 1.33
Thief 6/3 = 2.00

If the rounding occurs on this phase the 1/3 round down and you'd only get 6 hps.

Now, when looking at a level individually, this difference seems quite small, but it does have an impact on a character's total hitpoints. For example, if the mage level always rounds down, then a FMT without a con bonus will always receive just 1 hp upon level up. I guess I'm asking if there is a possibility of the mage getting 2 hps on level up, or of the fighter class gaining 4 hps on level up.

The other point of confusion is I have seen Jaheira receive 7 hps on her level up as a fighter. Given that her constitution is 17, it should not be possible for her to receive 7 hps every level up. So are her max hps upon level up alternating? Is her max 6 hps on even levels but 7 hps on odd levels? She starts with 12 hps as a level 1/1 character, which suggests that her starting hps were 7 from the fighter class and 5 from the druid class. However, when she hits level 2, I have never observed a total of 24 hps. In fact, I have never observed a total in excess of 22. I will admit that the odds of getting a 24 would be long, as the level up for both the fighter and druid occur simultaneously at 2,000 xp, but from playing experience it seems like it's impossible to consistently get the same rounding factors from one level to the next.

 

You mean that Jaheira allowed Khalid to leave the party when he put on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? I've never heard of that. Usually when either of the two leave the party, the other follows (resulting in trickery when you don't want one of them).

In creating a character I would recommend a starting constitution of 15 for thieves, bards, mages and clerics. For paladins, rangers and fighters I would recommend a starting constitution of 18 (17 at the lowest). The extra hit points make a big difference in how long you stay alive in a fight. The roll you listed was a good roll, but you should be able to get a total of 85 or so if you're patient (six more points to distribute).

Your elf character had an 18 strength (which is not necessary in most non-warrior classes) and an 18 charisma (again not necessary). The same roll could be redistributed for a mage/thief to:

Str: 15 (16)
Con: 15 (16)
Dex: 19 (20)
Int: 18 (19)
Wis: 8 (11)
Cha: 14 (15)

The numbers in parenthesis are after you factor in the tomes. You really don't need the strength as a mage/thief, but the extra 2 hit points per level will help a lot. The maximum your character would have as a M3/T4 is 18 hit points. Adjusting the constitution to 16 gives the same character 25 hit points.

If you're carrying this PC on to SoA then you would want a 15 wisdom as well (sacrificing more strength and charisma).

 

there's a mod for maxHP in bg1?! how did I miss that, I freaking hate the constant reloading, especially since I play BG2 on the normal difficulty settings and thus HPs are always maxed up.

@ kmonster - do u have the link for this mod, cus I only found it in the bundle with other things I don't wish to install

@bruno - that was just my rolepaying reason for only taking jaheira along, other wise she's much more faithful

high charsima is another part of rolepaying my character, also why would I need that high wisdom? potions works just fine with wish spells do they not?

anway I have rather easier time so far, guess I'm getting used to this character, after getting the robe of the good archmagi and MI spell I should be fine despite low HP I hope.
not sure what bracers I should put on, archer's probably for my main character, but what would benefit jahiera better - dexterity or one that improves her thaco and damage?

[ July 12, 2006, 18:10: Message edited by: Tim Tim ]

 

Yep - but it's easier than that. All you need is one character in your party with high wisdom when you cast wish. The genie attempts to talk to the cast when you summon him, but you can have any character click on the genie and talk to him if you're quick. So even if the caster's wisdom isn't all that high, anyone with a high wisdom can do the talking.

 

@Tim-Tim: it's part of the ease-of-use pack. AFAIK you can choose which component you install manually.

You can find a mod which does just what you want on the following page:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/index_mods.php
The four .2DA files must be copied into the override folder. You can even open them with a texteditor if you want to to understand what they do or change them.

@Aldeth: My prior post should explain why Jaheira can get 7 HP at a fighter level up.
She gets 5 HP for fighter + 1.5 con bonus + 0.5 remaining con bonus from her last level up as druid.
If there is no remaining half point from her last level up she gets only up to 6 HP.(should only happen when she reaches fighter level 7)
Getting the maximum HP is actually easier when you level up both classes together. You usually need far less reloads. The fact that you'll get at least 2 HP when you level up seperately has been overcompensated.

I guess it's just defined in the program how many HP a FMT can get for levelling each class. Since you get 6 at creation it is a sure guess that the defined distribution is 3-1-2.
I already told you how you can find out the exact details in my prior post.

 

To point it out to you, Aldeth...

The fractions get truncated but not forgotten. The only exception is that you can never get less than 1 HP for any level (this also applies to characters with CON penalties). So when levelling up as a high-level F/M/T you'll get 1 full HP for every level, even if you should have gotten 1/3 for a wizard level or 2/3 for a thief level.

 

I understand now. Thanks to both kmonster and Fel. However, I still dispute this point:

That doesn't make any sense at all, since the "rolls" are done separately. In order for Jaheira to get the maximum possible hitpoints, she'd need to roll a perfect score for both the druid level up and the fighter level up, and the odds should be much lower of that happening together than happening separately. I agree that when both classes level simultaneously, your chances for a very low total are also remote, for the exact same reason.

This is how I'm looking at it: The odds of Jaheira getting a perfect fighter roll of 10 should be 1 in 10. The odds of her getting a perfect druid roll of 8 should be 1 in 8. So the odds of both of them happening on a simultaneous level up should be 1 in 80.

 

Ah, but you're missing the fractions. If you do a level up of only one, you have no way of knowing whether she got a roll of 9 or 10 for her fighter level, because both rolls would result in a visible increase of 6 HP, while the actual increase could be 6 or 6.5. (For druid, replace "9 or 10" with "7 or 8", "6 HP" with "5 HP", and "6 or 6.5" with "5 or 5.5".) So you can't even know if you've gotten the maximum roll. But if you level up in both, that 1 in 80 chance of maximum HP is actually possible to spot because it's the only way you'll get a full 12 HP added.

Of course, this all assumes that there was no hanging fraction beforehand. But if there is a fraction, then you should be able to see a 7 HP gain on a fighter level or a 6 HP gain on a druid level. Which then leaves you with no hanging fraction, and you have to level both as outlined above.

 

According to my exprience I assume it works the following way if you ignore the con bonus:

A fighter/druid gets 1-9 HP/level and all rolls have the same probability, so 1 of 9 rolls should give the maximum.

If you level up only as fighter you get 1-5 HP, but the distribution is different, something like 50 percent for 1 HP and 5 percent for 5 HP.

I don't know how this is calculated exactly, maybe the lower value of 2 d5 rolls is taken which yields 2.2 HP average and the maximum only in 1 of 25 rolls, but I suspect it's even worse.

Does anyone know how this is handled in P&P ?

 

True, Fel, but the only time that you level in both simultaneously for levels 9 and lower (above that it doesn't matter because hps are no longer rolled) is at level 2. At level 2, there is no hanging fraction, because you start at level 1 with maximum hps (6.5 for the fighter and 5.5 for the druid for a total of 12). I guess I should have specified in my example that I was thinking specifically about leveling from level 1 to level 2, as that is the only time it will occur.

EDIT: kmonster - all rolls have the same probability, but the added results of those rolls do not have the same probability. For example, there's a heck of a lot more ways for a fighter/druid (again going from level 1 to 2) to come up with a total of 5hps than there are for a fighter/druid to come up with a total of 9hps. In fact, there is only one combination that will yield 9hps, but 18 different ways to get a total of 5hps, so a total of 5hps is 18 times more likely to occur.

So the odds of getting a 9 are 1 in 80 (1.25%), but the odds of getting a total of 5 are 18 in 80 (22.5%)

 

Levelling from 1 to 2 will happen at 1500 XP for the druid level and 2000 XP for the fighter level, which is 3000 & 4000 total for Jaheira. Looking at this spot specifically, what I've said is true.

You're level 1/1 with 12 HP. You gain a druid level, and let's say you roll an 8; that's (8+3)/2 for 5.5 HP. You go up to 17 with a hanging fraction. Now let's say you roll a 7 instead; that's (7+3)/2 for 5 HP. You go up to 17 without a hanging fraction. In both situations, all you see is that you've gone up to 17 HP, and you can't tell at all which has happened until the next level up, if then.

But if you wait that extra 1000XP (which I wouldn't really recommend anyway), you can be sure. If you roll 10 & 8, you'll get another 12 HP, with no hanging fraction. But if you roll lower, with a 9 & 8, or a 10 & 7, you'll get only 11.5, which will give you 11 HP with a hanging fraction. The difference is quite visible, between gains of 11 HP and 12 HP, so you can be sure that you've gotten the maximum hit points.

@kmonster:
I think that's a function of the other rule I mentioned, that you can't get less than 1 HP per level. As a fighter/xxxxx with no CON bonus, if you roll a 1 the half that you get as a result is rounded up to a full HP. But then if you don't already have a hanging fraction, your chances of getting a visible increase of 1 go up to 30%. If you roll a 1 or a 2, you get 1 HP, and if you roll a 3 you get 1 HP with a hanging fraction. And I'll just bet you didn't bother to go looking for that fraction and just reloaded (I know I would have). As for the remaining 20%...I'd say that's a combination of annoyance seeing more of it and the RNG being not so random as we would hope.

 

@Fel: Did you do some reverse engineering or are you just estimating like me ?

Your explaination just doesn't fit to what I (and others) had to suffer in BG1, like Coran getting only 8 HP at 7 level ups.
The chance for this (or worse) to happen is only about 1:4000 if it's like you suggest.