You guys have to see this!

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[I don't think it's necessary to showcase that kind of idiocy in this forum, especially since that would likely be very offensive to Muslims, and Arabs in particular; link removed - BTA]

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited September 13, 2001).]

 

Actually, I would stay alive if I haven't seen that.

Then again, one more wasted link doesn't matter...

 

That is wank and it's not needed!

So far the debates on here have been at a fairly high level. Keep it that way.

Remove the link please.

 

could someone tell me what this prat typed here so i may wallow in the my disgust at his actions.

[It was a link to a page cursing bin Laden, Allah and Arabs in general - BTA]

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited September 13, 2001).]

 

No, let he not be the victim of his own stupidity. He already is enough punished by the bad name he has now...

Anyone seen what happened with the Taleban site? That was hacked. There stood: Ry_den fucked with Taleban again. A llink with: when you have info, go to www.gbi.ogv and then a picture of Bin Laden and: I not give any commentary, for this asshole already showed the world by himself what an asshole he is. Now the site is totally down.

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited September 13, 2001).]

 

It could help a little to actually know more about this man than just his name and that he's regarded an extremist. People, go out and buy a book on him. Talk to muslims about his reputation in the arabic world. Try to see both sides. You might be in for the surprise of your life. The only thing needed is some curiosity and openmindedness.

He might be a criminal and responsible for this tragedy - but aren't you interested in his story and how and why he became what he is?

Be prepared for the fact that the world is very, very complex

 

What are the americans waiting for eh?!
bomb afhanistan, they only live in the middle ages over there, nothings wrong with killing monkeys, this is the same

 

Let me ask you a question: Who is "they"?

Does this include 3 year old children? Women? Farmers? Teachers?

Could it be that it is you who is living in the middle ages?

For me, it's people like the terrorists and you that make this world suck.

 

in Afhanistan the taleban rules wich is utterly deranged and nothing but a big joke if you ask me
thats why it should disappear, enterely

 

Aha. Interesting thought. I know quite a few places and regions that are a mess. So maybe we should wipe them out, too? Oh, and when recession hits the US, it will be a miserable place, too (look back how it was in the 30's). Or think about Israel. Quite a mess now. Or northern Ireland. Let's delete it from the maps, let's nuke them.

I dare to call you short minded. Very much so. I think your ideas don't differ very much from those of the terrorists. They actually think that America is a mess that causes a lot of pain in the world. They think they have the right to wipe you out.

I tell you something: I think they are dead wrong. As dead wrong as you are.

 

Rendelius:
You want us to admit or gree to what?

a) bodily pain is the same in a 3 year old muslim child as in a business associate from WTC
yes of course

b) blind hatred in the US-soldier in Vietnam is the same as the organisations in Afghanistan?
yes of course

c) Is there reason in the terrorist acts?
NO. No. and No!!!!!! Terrorist acts will only escalate suffering. The past century US has only tried to minmize suffering. Is that so hard to see? You are norrow minded too. Give alternatives to bombing japan that had caused less lives? huh? Imagine the war would have razed 5 to 10 years more, perhaps longer. Neither the US nore the japanese would have given up!! 100 of millions would have been killed. If US is evil why havent they taken over the world. Image that the Jihad had the same means as US today... The entire world would be ruled by them.

 

Come down off this bloodthirsty mood! "Bomb the fuckers" is definitely not the way to go now ...

What do you want ? A nice little pogrome ? Revenge available at your frontdoor ... by just looting an arab cornershop or beating up a beared turban wearer .... wonderful

Unfortunately it won't change anything except that then you are just a deranged asshole, not better than a stormtrooper, skinhead or an arab bomber

Settle down, let the intelligence serviced investigate and wait ... the guilty will be punished (killed or caught, however) soon enough. Personally I would like to see them accused at the international criminal court to be sentenced to rot for the rest of theit lives, though this seems a wee bit unlikely with a us president right from texas

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited September 14, 2001).]

 

Taking some time off to cool down and handle this in the most rational, advisable manner would certainly be a boon to our government.

Unfortunately, every day we refrain from action is another day for the terrorists to strengthen their position and plan other violent acts. We must take advantage of this situation and the outrage of the general international community now, and move to eradicate the terrorist organizations, at least as much as is in our power.

However, I do not think we should extend our military reprisals to include the countries that serve as host to these organizations. I believe they should be punished, but in a lesser manner if possible. Whatever it takes is whatever it takes, but let's consider war against these countries as the last, ugliest resort. Please remember that much of the population even of Afghanistan do not support these attacks and are nearly as horrified and shocked as we are. Nor do they want war with us. Example: link



[This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited September 14, 2001).]

 

You asked me about alternatives to flattening Afghanistan with explosives in order to get the Taliban removed and the terrorists dead.

Let me first introduce you to the fact that Talibans are US made. At least in their current power. During the war in Afghanistan, where the USSR occupied the country, Talibans were fed with weapons worth 6 billion US dollars by the united states. They once were allies - and if you question if the US then knew what the taliban were about, you question the sanity of US reconaissance.

At the moment, the Taliban are mainly backed by Pakistan (ever since one of the most important allies of the US in that region). Most other countries do not reckognize this government. For example, there is an embassy of Afghanistan in my home country, Austria, but it is run by what is called "The Northern Alliance", the group of people that still hold about 10% of northern Afghanistan. By the way, they are also islamic fundamentalists, but this doesn't drive nations away to see them as the rightful government of Afghanistan.

Allow me another sidestep: I remember well the days of the Gulf War, when US troops were based in Saudi Arabia in preparation to free Kuwait. Before the attack started, there was an interview on CNN I won't forget for the rest of my life. An actor which was engaged in a peace movement in the US, asked a US senator if he knew what would be attacked when Iraq were attacked. The senator was stunned by the question, since he thought it was a very silly one. So he said: of course. Then the actor asked him if he could name the countries that have borders with the Iraq. The answer was revealing: he even named Israel as having borders with Iraq, and he got some others dead wrong, too, forgetting some that really have borders with this nation.

What I wanted to show with this sidestep: it is often frightening how people think they can talk about something they know little to nothing about. This leads to wrong solutions. I strongly believe that bombing Afghanistan is a wrong solution. There are some differences between the following things: Islam, islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. These are VERY important differences, because not every islamist is an islamic fundamentalist, and not every islamic fundamentalist is a terrorist.

I wonder how many of you really know what islamic fundamentalism stands for. Please read something about it - it doesn't hurt to know what one is talking about.

Ok, now back to the question you asked me: what are the alternatives to bombing Afghanistan? I think there are some. First of all, this assumes that Osama Bin Laden is really behind this attacks (latest development point to a more international terrorist network than just the one, including a group from Egypt - and I wouldn't be surprised if links are found to Algeria and Sudan as well) and that he still is in Afghanistan. My first suggestion would be to precisely know where his money is and how it is hidden. Then cut these groups off from these ressources. Second, I would go after the heads of the terrorist network, pick out the ones that plan and guide. Either arrest them or fight them. Generate a broad alliance against those regimes that support terrorism. Hurt these regimes where they are most vulnerable: money.

A very important next step (or something that should be considered side by side) is to have a look where the western world causes some of the problems that now backfire. For example, most muslims regard the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia as something that is a humiliation. Why? The two most important religious places for the muslim world are in Israel and in Saudi Arabia. They regard Israel as occupied territory, they regard the US troops as an occupation force in the land where Mekka lies. Furthermore, the US supports the Saudi Regime, which is extremely unpopular even in their own land, because - despite of all the oil - the were capable of building up debts of more than 160 billion dollars, completely neglecting the fact that the oil won't last forever. They left their people unprepared for the future.

I think it would really calm down the situation if the US could think about leaving Saudi Arabia. I know that geopolitics make this very hard, but it could be regarded as a sign of good will. Terrorists don't have the backing of most of the muslims (if you know about the koran, it is a rather peaceful religion), and this step could really improve the situation.

I know that there will always be madman like those who planned and did the attack on the US, and against them, there will be little that can be done. And these aren't restricted to the islam world, just look at Oklahoma, look at what happened in Japan.

The most pressing issue of our times is that the world is an unfair place. Did you know that the three wealthiest men of the world (all americans by the way) have more money than the gross national product of the 48 poorest nations in the world? I don't blame the rich for being rich. But it shows how unevenly distributed the money is. A little bit more solidarity would serve all of us. There has been progress, but still we are far away from where we should be.

Excuse this lengthy posting, but this is something that really concerns me, and something I think about quite often. If you think I am wrong, I don't put a blame on you. I just want you, the ones who think that bombs solve problems, to think about my arguments. I may be wrong in some cases, but I really believe they are worth considering.

Rendelius
Publisher RPGDot.com

 

You make some good points, hunt down terroism, I cant agree more. Support the countries' population meanwhile.

But I dont think Anyone asked you for alternatives to bomb Afghanistan. I guess you are speaking in advance.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited September 14, 2001).]

 

Pakistan agrees to all US demands, which include unlimited airspace, and allowing ground troops in. I think there might be an attack coming for them. Let them all rot.