Saving Throws guide download

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This document was uploaded to Sorcerers the other day (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Saving_throws.zip) and has some serious errors in it...

WIS has no effect on saving throws.

CON only effects the saving throws of certain races and also only certain saves:
Dwarves and Halflings have save vs death, wands, and spells modified as per the table
Gnomes have save vs wands and spells modified
All other races get no bonus to saves from CON

There are several errors here:
Rogue saves max out at level 17, not 21
Mage saves max out at level 16, not 21
Where's the Monk table?

 

I may be wrong about this but the information in the Saving throw document looks like it is combined 2nd/3rd Edition rules. In 3rd Ed. rules the three things that are taken into account are Fortitude (CON bonuses apply), Reflex (DEX bonuses), and Will (WIS bonuses). See this for more information on it.
www.wizards.com/d20/article.asp?x=srd

If it is a combined list, my hats off to Ragusa. That is some work to decipher that one.

 

I've never download that document, not ever will.
It is d&d rules stuff and when it comes to d&d you may count me out (guess which forum on SP I never read, guess which "hadbooks" and "manuals" I want to burn...).

Anyway, I can speak about SoA no matter the rules it uses. In SoA everything from Mirkwood's post is accurate (except it is left out that CON higher than 19 also grants +5 bonus to certain saves of certain races he displayed).

Table of saving throws improvement for Monks' level progression in SoA is:

Code:

 

OK, thanks for the input folks - it was my saving throw guide you downloaded.
The BG-rules are based on 2E and basically I puzzled information together - from some topics here on SP and from my BG-2 manual (I know it is faulty in some points, thieving abilities especially).

Mirkwood:
(a) Wis-modifier on saving throws:
However, it is *right* about the wis-saving throw modifier. On page 128 of the BG-2 SoA manual there is a collumn, displaying the "modification vs. spell attack" which is in fact a saving throw modifier. The same table can be found in the BG-1 handbook on page 137.

(b) Con-modifier on saving throws:
I may be wrong on the con-data, I will check this out with sample chars. This was one of the points I took over unchecked.

(c) Class specific saving-throw progression table:
The class specific saving-throw progression was made by Syl (here: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001172.html ) and I mainly adopted it, while bringing it into a clearer layout. When the table is unreadable it is mainly because the table is too wide for your screen ... I think about a better layout anyway.
As for the leveling out of mages and thiefs: IIRC these tables have been modified for higher levels with ToB in mind, though I lack a proof yet.

(d) Monks:
Monks are something special. They get the fighter-stronghold, but are considered priests (mind the str-limitation to 18), so I think the priest table will be applicable for monks.

Finally:
It is pretty difficult to decypher all the info about saving-throws of classes because wizards of the coast considers it as a risc to give away such details ... for free ... they want you to buy their books instead. I am thankful for any correction here and I will try to update this table as soon as possible - eventually I have a non-downloadable version in mind, something more screen friendly

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

Wisdom reflects a character's willpower, insight, and intuition. A player character is much more aware of his surroundings with a high wisdom score and is even granted a bonus in resisting spells that affect the mind, such as Charm Person.

About constitution, at least in 3e it affects Fortitude Saves (and I think this is the same in 2nd edition rules) for ALL classes. Only Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings get an additional bonus on saving throws for they are tough.

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

Considering the few days of trying and checking it took me to make this tables I'd find it refreshing when you, dear Mirkwood, would take the burden and make sample chars - with different con's, different races and different levels to proove I'm wrong.

I actually simply don't have the time to do so my self, at least not before the weekend. I think it's a good idea to discuss this problem in depth before I go to correct my table. So, for the sake of argument and understanding, feel welcome to try out, try to keep your calculations transparent so others recalculate them.

 

Good idea Ragusa.

Mirkwood, start a new ToB game for example, make 6 characters, all different races and same constitution and wisdom and startw tih them a 6 person multiplayer game. Then check all saving throws. Next, 2x3 make characters of the same race, with different constitution and wisdom (low, medium, high) and check their Saving Throws against spells again. Then look at the results, post them here and make aconclusion who is right ot not.

 

The "con-quest" looks like that - Try to find out: (a) wether there is a basic con bonus at all and (b) if a hypothetical basic con st-bonus and racial con st-bonus add up.

The line of argument is: A tough char with a high con is more robust than a low-con char (in terms of st), the dwarven race, with the same con, is tougher - by race. I guessed both bonusses add up.

(a) wether there is a basic con bonus at all:
Create some human fighters with identical stats (use SK at need), cons 4-6, 7-10, 11-13, 14-17 and 18-19 (resulting in a guessed st-bonus from +1 to +5 accordingly). Keep wis from 8-14 to avoid it's st malus/ bonus to complicate the picture.

If there is no basic st-bonus - you're right.

As Headbanger suggested, it's a good idea to do that in a ToB mplayer game for the higher level shows the differnces more clearly. Of course, leave all your chars unequipped.

(b) If a hypothetical basic con st-bonus and racial con st-bonus add up:
Once (a) is checked out and there is a basic st-bonus for con, create a dwarf with the same cons and look for differences. When con results in an improved st on the human and the dwarf's con's better, that's likely because the hypothetical basic and his racial bonus on con add up. Further it would be interesting to know where the dwarfs better st's come from, if they are racial and/ or con-related.

Mind that the dwarfs racial bonus for con is: st vs magic & poison +1 for every 3,5 con

Then sum up and make your conclusion. If you don't want to, I think I'll go for it somewhere this weekend - anyway, I'd really prefer you to do that.

Good fun

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

I don't need to test it by making characters since I know how to read a .2DA file. Do you?

Why don't you have any comment on what Extremist said? He seems to back my statements up. Is Extremist wrong too?

 

I could if you would be so kind to send the .2DA file. to me instead of just posting about it here .... (*hint*hint*hint*)
Primarily I want to see a proper table about st's - I'm not riding an ego-trip, so constructive critic is welcome. You'll find my e-mail in my profile .... (*hint*hint*hint*)

 

Use Infinity Explorer to view them. Here are the file names...

SAVECDH.2DA CON saving throw modifiers for Dwarf and Halfling
SAVECG.2DA CON saving throw modifiers for Gnomes
SAVEMON.2DA Monk saving throw progression
SAVEPRS.2DA Priest saving throw progression
...

Nowhere in the game is there a file for WIS saving throw modifiers and to prove it I did actually create two characters - dwarves with identical stats (using CTRL-8) except one had 3 WIS the other 17 WIS - there was NO DIFFERENCE in saving throws between them.

[Edit: removed my silly comments at the start of the post although the condescending attitude of some people here can get real annoying

Earl Grey-
I didn't think of the possibility of the WIS saving throw bonus not showing up in the character record screen since the CON bonus does. It is possible I suppose, don't know how you would verify it though.]


[This message has been edited by Mirkwood (edited January 18, 2002).]

 

@Mirkwood
You make a strong point and your find on the non-existance of the "Magical Defense Adjustment" of high Wisdom is an important one. Are you sure that there is no other file where that bonus is shown? It's important enough that it seriously devalues the Wisdom stat.

I don't think just checking the values displayed in the character record screen will prove anything - and I think you feel the same way from what you have posted.

Again, a good post, Mirkwood!

 

Wow! Nice work people thanks for the research. This really changes things a lot

 

I think it's not totally realistic then.... Wisdom had influence on insight so it would have seemed to be logical to save against enchantments and mind spells. 2nd edition PHM tells:

Wisdom reflects a character's willpower, insight, and intuition. A player character is much more aware of his surroundings with a high wisdom score and is even granted a resistance to spells that affect the mind, such as Charm Person, when possessing exceptional wisdom

In 2nd edition rules it gives resistance. When it doesn't in BG, the rules of the games at this part (as also at some other things) aren't totally right. The ST table is great when looking at D&D... but can be wrong for BG doesn't use the D&D rules well at every point.

At least Wisdom should play a part when you have to make a save vs. fear. Else the makers of the game have done something really wrong.

About attitude:

Ragusa thinks he is right (for wisdom affecting ST at some spells seem logical and D&D-based)
YOu also think your right and maybe you are... so you both say you are right and use arguments... Ragusa only thought he was right and that has nothing to do with an annoying attitude, only with two people having different thoughts about something.

I discovered some more, maybe this was mentioned... I found out that high Wisdom give immunity to certain spells. (Note, this is from a 2nd edition wisdom table. These are 2nd edition rules so I don't think it is also implemented in the BG-series, unfortunatly this 2nd edition D&D based game have many D&D rules not implemented in the game):

Wisdom: 19: Spell Immunity: Cause Fear, Charm Person, Command, Friends, Hypnotism

Wisdom: 20: Spell Immunity:Forget, Hold person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare

Wisdom: 21: Spell Immunity: Fear

Wisdom: 22: Spell Immunity: Charm Monster, Confusion, Emotion, Fumble, Suggestion

Wisdom: 23: Spell Immunity: Chaos, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Magic Jar, Quest

Wisdom: 24: Spell Immunity: Geas, Mass Suggestion, Rod of Rulership

Wisdom: 25: Spell Immunity:Antipathy/Sympathy, Death Spell, Mass Charm


[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited January 18, 2002).]

 

I know Tal, I edited the post. These are 2nd edition D&D rules.. I suppose this is one of the rules that they unfortunatly didn't implement in BG2... I posted it to show that in 2nd edition wisdom does have influence on saving throws... and even give immunity to some spells... for BG and BG2 is D&D based, it seemd logical that wisdom also in BG affected saving throws and immunity to some spells. Maybe much of these discussion is created by difference between BG/BG2 and 2nd edition... for the ST table of Ragusa is a good D&D-ST-table but in BG some things are different.

 

You know that spell immunities and saving throws are not the same thing.

There is also a possibility that high WIS grants better magic resistances.

Finally, as I've said in my first topic - forget d&d manuals when it's about SoA. The game is BASED on d&d, that doesn't mean it sticks to it 100%.

 

This is what would have been my signature if they were implemented here (good thing they aren't by the way):
Baldur's Gate 2 is not an "AD&D simulation." It's a tactical story-based RTS featuring loosely interpreted Dungeons and Dragons-like rules.

Don't try to figure out how this game works by referring 2nd or 3rd edition AD&D rules!
The only thing that means anything is if you do it like for example Mirkwood did.

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited January 18, 2002).]