Thac0

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I haven't played pen & paper in ten years or so and cannot remember if this applies or not, but playing through Baldur's Gate II I noticed that "to hit" bonuses are based on strength rather than dexterity. I cannot quite figure out the logic behind that. In my mind, it makes sense that strength determines things like how much weight you can carry, how likely you are to break down doors, etc but "to hit" rolls should be based on a characters agility. Anyone know why this is the case? Anything in the player's manual? Any speculations?

 

I suppose Strength has influence on you Thac0 for your attack is heavier, there is more power in it, so have more change to hit through the armor and do damage. I suppose you also have more control in a weapon when you have higher Strength.

For Ranged weapons, in 3rd edition, you get a dexterity modifier, and you don't have the Strength modifier. However I can understand your point that Dexterity can say something about how you handle a melee weapon but in 3rd edtition Dex gives no bonusses in melee attack.

For the rest, Thac0 is also based on the class you play (fighters have lower thac0 then mages and also their Thaco reduces faster when they level up), also Weapon specialization and the weapon you use (magic or not) has influence on the Thaco.

 

Headbanger covered most of the major points. I think part of the reason strength gives 'to hit' bonuses is game balance. If those with high DEX were hitting all the time why play a fighter instead of a thief. I agree some of the argument is that the strength is used to cut through the armor of your enemy. In D&D, unlike of RPGs, you can't hit and do no damage. So consider some of those 'near misses' to be hits that just didn't penatrate the armor. Hence, STR should play some rule in figuring these 'to hit' numbers.

In 3E they did create the weapon finese feat. This feat lets you use DEX instead of STR to determining to hit numbers with light weapons like the rapier. In addition all missile attack are base on DEX 'to hit' and STR for damage when it applies.

3E did do a lot of address this issue but it's still far from resolved.

 

Also I think one of their reasons for using the Str. mod is that if you where stronger you would be able to move the weapon quicker B/c you could move its weight easier.

I hope that made sence.

 

I think the point about penetrating armour is a very good one, I have pondered this point for a long time. I think it would be good if particular weopons gained the str/dex bonus to hit according to how they operate. The rapier for example should use dex to hit while the bastard sword would be based on strength. Of course this just serves to make the game more complex which a lot of people don't like.

 

To make the system more realistic, and I'm not saying that's a good thing, DEX should deterime all hits and STR damage. In addition Armor should have both a protection rating and a damage resistance. The first to 'reflect' blows and the second to deterime how much damage 'gets through' to hurt the target. But if we go this far we might as well be playing GURPS instead of D&D. D&D is not realistic for a reason, it's a fantasy RPG.

 

Indeed. Maybe they will fix this in the next edition. Howeverthe damage resistance is not necessary, when you do 1d8 damage you can alraedy do less or more damage at a hit. That is in the roll for damage included.

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited October 09, 2001).]

 

Headbanger, not really. Random damage and damage resistance of armor are two different things. For example if you swing an axe at someone ten times each hit will be a bit different, hence the random damage roll. Now if one target is wear leather armor and one plate mail it is to be asumed that the guy in plate mail will take less damage every time. That is damage resistance. Two different things. Do you follow?

 

And then of course there is the system in Warhammer where you have a to hit roll (based on comparing weapon skill), a to wound roll(Strength vs toughness), and an armour save (like the D&D saves, but representing the effect of armour, with penalties based on strength of attack) and then, in the case of things like cannon, monsters and other hard-hitting thingies a damage roll (bog-standard infantrymen only do 1 damage per hit - and only take 1 damage as well).

 

Yuck! I much prefer my 2 rolls on most attack actions (if I'm luck) with as little math as possible thank you. It takes enough of my brain power to keep up with the AoO's and initiative

 

I agree, two dice are more than enough. Ack! The pain of highlevel gaming, having all those attacks!

 

I agree Voltric. Noy every rule in the game is totally realistic and you can't expect D&D to make a perfect game. Of course positive cristisi to make the game better is always ok and maybe in a later edition they will make the attack rulez some more advanced, however I think there shouldn't be too much rolling for it stops the whole game for a while. I think that when you play with such rules, Thiefs and mages would have a big problem. But how would you exactly make the rules then?

 

I don't exactly follow you question about Mages and thieves? In short the GURPS basic magic system has lots of issues and I try to avoid it at all cost. The Voodoo version is much better. A huge simplification is spells are learned as skills and advantages (like feats) improve casting ability. The whole system is based on mama points.

Why would thieves be affected?

Mind you I mostly play GURPS in a high-tech or Ultra-tech setting. I figure if I want to play a fantasy game I'll play D&D or Earth Dawn.

 

Volctric, the point is:

1. Plates give better AC then Leather or Robe. That's an advantage of taht armor. With your idea, plates should also reduce the amount of damage when you ar hit. Tjen the difference between plates and leather would be too big. I mean that someone in leather is easier hit and get's less damage reduced when hit. I used Thief's and Mages for they use leather (and mages only robes) as a class that would become even more fragile then fighters.

But can you make it all some more detailed by making an additional rule that would reduce damage, dependent on the armor you use?

 

That is the exact situation. DR is totally dependent on the type of armor you are wearing. For example leather might have a DR of 5 and Plate mail a DR of 12. This means you would ignore the first 5 points of damage in leather and the first 12 in plate. The GURPS system is far more complex than that of D&D. In addition armor give passive defense. The glancing blow factor. The PD and DR of armor are independent of each other. Character also have active defenses like dodge, blocks and parrys. As I said it much more complex. Go check out the http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ website if you want more info.

 

Thanks, I will take a look, however I think the system inD&D isn't bad

 

Headbanger, mind you I love D&D. I thought 2E was great and 3E is even better. But D&D only works for one genure - fantasy. If you want to play a game in another setting - Cyberpunk, Modern, Supers, Horror, Robotech or Space - you can't really use the D&D system it's to specific. Again this is not a bad thing, only that I play some other style games as well.

 

I understand that... and you are right... but for these genres are indeed other games that have systems specialized on that genre... Shadowrun, Vampire.. etc.