Extra attacks (3rd)

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Hi all... or 3rd edition-party just reached level 6... so some of us have an additional attack per round now. I know the additional attack comes after the first round so after the first round there is a subround where characters with an additional attack per round can attack again...

But some questions remain:

1. I play a dual-wielding Ranger... Can he do 2 attacks in the 2nd attack (of course with the penalty for two dual-wielding)

2. Can you also use feats like cleave when you kill someone in the 2nd attack?

3. Are there other things I have to know about his second attack?

4. With feats like Rapid shot, is the second attack you can do in 1 attack round also in the second atatckround or just in the first one?

 

Many good questions.

In general, the second and subsequent attacks gained as a result of high level are subject to the same feats and abilities as the first. They just are at an attack bonus of 5 less than the first.

Rangers, or any character, that dual weilds would get 4 attacks upon gaining the "Second" attack.

Feats such as cleave and Point Blank attack would apply.

As for Rapid shot, this extra attack is in addition to any other subsequent attacks gained and uses the attack bonus numbers of the first shot (every shot fired that round suffers a -2 penalty however). It does take place during the "extra attacks" portion of the round.

The "Full Attack Action" must be used in order to utilize any additional attacks you would get regardless of how you get them. This limits the distance you can move to 5 feet (which can be taken before, after, or between attacks). The decision to take the full attack action can be made after the result of your first attack has been determined.

[Disclaimer - As always, the rules in Dungeons and Dragons can be changed, altered or disregarded by the DM if He/She so desires. Always consult with your DM before making any decisions regarding rules interpretations.]

[This message has been edited by Baldak Oakfist (edited February 28, 2002).]

 

Thanx mister DM,

you really helped us out with that thing!

 

Thanks Baldak.... your my hero!

So with Rapid Shot, the second attack is in the second attack round.... Short example:

We have a level 6 Dwarven Fighter, Level 6 dual wielding Ranger, level 6 thief with Rapid Shot.

In the first attack round, I attack 2 times (main hand and off hand), Kharan attacks once, and our thief shoots one arrow. After the round, I attack twice again, Kharan attacks once again and Laryssa our thief shoots another arrow... is that right? Or can Laryssa attack twice in every round?

What when Laryssa is level 8? Then she gets an extra attack... Does this make Rapid Shot useless? (I suppose not)

Another thing... we encounter many Dredges in our game. The dredges have 2 attacks... claw and bite..... can the dredges do both attacks as full action in one round or is this second attack also in the second attack round?

/me casts summon Baldak for more answers

 

You have the sequence correct. The theif gets only one additional shot with rapid shot. Not one additional shot for each attack. So when she reaches level 8, and would have 2 attacks, whe could use rapid shot and get 3.

The Rogues current attack bonus is +4, so when using rapid shot she can make two attacks at +2. Upon reaching 8th level, she would get two attacks normally (+6/+1). In this case if she uses rapid shot, she would get three shots (+4/+4/-1). Rapid shot is not useless , but you would need to determine if the attitional shot is worth the lowered attack bonus.

[This message has been edited by Baldak Oakfist (edited February 28, 2002).]

 

As far as I know, you can only attack once with your off hand if you're dual wielding. The off hand attack is made with the best attack bonus you have - dual wielding penalties.

If you want to attack more than once, you need to get the improved two weapon fighting feat, which happens to have a prerequisite of +9 base attack bonus. And the second off hand attack you get with this feat is at a -5 penalty from the first (as expected).

So there's no way you can have more than 1 attack with your offhand before level 9.

But as Baldak, mentioned, it all depends on the dm. These are just the core rules. Feel free to disregard them. (Which, btw, could make dualwielding more powerful than it's intended)

 

After consulting very closely the tomes of knowledge....Invoker is correct in the two weapon attack. I have not encountered this situation yet while DM'ing 3rd edition, and so have not fully researched it. This could be one way to put the Ranger back up there in effectiveness as a front line fighter, but again it would be up to the DM to allow it.

 

I don't get it... can you give an example like I did for my dual-wielding ranger that has +6/+1 (and +3 modifier)....

 

Ok, assuming you're dualwielding a longsword and a shortsword, and you don't have weapon focus feat in these. Dualwielding in this case, assuming you have ambidexterity and two wepon fighting feats (the ranger has these by default if you're wearing light armor), will give you -2 to both hands. If you're dualwielding two longswords for example, that'll give you -4 to both hands.

Then, at 6th level, with a modifier of +3, your attacks would be +7/+2/+7 (with ambidexterity and two weapon fighting)

At ninth level, you get the improved two weapon fighting feat, and your attacks will now be +10/+5/+10/+5

And you can at most have 2 attacks with your offhand.

So at 11th level, you get another attack, and your attacks now are +12/+7/+2/+12/+7

I hope that makes it clear. I have a tendency to be incoherent

 

Thanks.. Baldak also explained some of it on the chat....

One more thing... You say I have +7/+2/+7.... does that mean that the first +7 and +2 attack is in the first round and the second +7 attack is with my main hand weapon in the round for the extra attack(s)?

 

What round with extra attacks?

You can choose make the +7/+2/+7 attacks if you use the Full Attack action. The last +7 is with your off weapon (which you may choose to use first=> +7(off)/+7(main)/+2(main)). Furthermore the off weapon deals damage with only half strength bonus.

 

Ok, just to clarify in case it hasn't been already:

A first level Ranger dual-wielding gets 2 attacks per round, both at his highest base attack bonus, both at a -2 or -4 penalty [depending on whether or not one weapon is light]. The off hand attack only adds 1/2 strength bonus.

At sixth level, the Ranger gets another attack per round, [+6/+1], for a total of 3. This attack is with the main hand, suffering the same -2 or -4, and deals damage just like the first main hand attack, only it is obviously -5 less than the original attack.

At ninth level, the Ranger gets as a free feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. The new attack is with his off hand weapon and again only uses 1/2 the Str bonus for damage. He now has 4 attacks, whose base look something like this: +9 main, +9 off, +4 main, +4 off, before any modifiers or penalties for Str, feats, dual-wielding or whatever.

The order of how the attacks must go is somewhat tricky: You can choose to do the +9 or +4 off hand or the +9 main hand first, but you cannot do the +4 main hand before you do the +9 main hand. I hope that makes a little bit of sense.

Amon-Ra

 

Hmm...
In the first post of this thread, you say:

I think this is where your misconception lies. There is no such thing as an "extra round" for bonus attacks. If you have three attack, come your turn you can do all those attacks in sequence (if you use the Full Attack action).

Of course, your DM could have changed the rules...

 

This is not an "Extra" round. It is not realistic to think that if you get multiple attacks that you would score all of them at precisely the same moment. Many DM's break up the melee round into parts where in part 1 everyone takes their first attack, or if dualweilding two attacks. In part 2, anyone that gets a second attack with the main hand takes it then and additional parts are added as needed until everyone has taken all their allowed attacks for the round.

[This message has been edited by Baldak Oakfist (edited March 02, 2002).]

 

WOW. Baldak that would take forever just to get through a basic round at high levels. I know it's not realistic to think that one would just popup off three attacks and wait for everyone to finish their other attacks before attacking again. But then the round system isn't exactly realistic, it just happens to be effective. For speediness and orderliness, each time a character takes his turn, and he has the option of using full attack and wants too, go ahead and let them take all their attacks at once. If they wait till some sort of bonus round, it can cause all sorts of problems with characters say using their extra attacks to swack the wizard who just started casting a spell as a full round action, then use any attacks of opertunity on him as well, giving them extra chances they shouldn't have to foil the spellcaster. Or say a character attacks someone with full attack, uses one attack, and the character attacked moves away. Then either you let the attacking character move to him (which he shouldn't be allowed to do as he is using full attack) or the person who was waiting to use his full attacks in this bonus round is possibly scewed out of his bonus attacks, unless there happens to be another target within five feet. General rule: when a characer has multiple attacks, let him take all or none when his turn comes up. Don't go with a bonus round.

 

I know.. I only mean that the second main hand attack (the -5 attack) comes after all other characters have attacked... so just like you have for that attack an initiative of 1.

 

Nope. You do them all when your initiative comes, presuming you make a Full Attack. At least if you are following the third edition rules, which I presume you are.

I believe there was an (optional?) rule in earlier editions that allowed for people with more than one mainhand attack to make their first attacks before anyone else, thus breaking it into more or less confusing subrounds. At least I think that was how it went.

 

Headbanger, when your turns comes around, and you have three attacks, and you're in a postition to use the full attack option, just take them all at once *twack twack twack* on whatever enemeies are near enough for you to twack. Then when you're done, let next person use their turn. When they've all cycled through a round, you move on to the next. Clean, simple, and no confusing sub rounds.

[This message has been edited by Crawl (edited March 12, 2002).]