Hide and Move Silently

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First a disclaimer of sorts - I've never played D&D, AD&D, 2E, 3E, 3.5E etc. My experience with the genre comes strictly from the CRPG.

Recently, while playing NWN with an assassin I strolled in front of three drow guards in stealth mode, took a look at them, smoked a cigarrette, and then went behind one and killed him with a death attack. Ran away a bit. Went into stealth mode, strolled back three feet in front of the remaining guards, cracked open a beer, drained the beer, tossed aside the bottle, and killed another with a death attack. Ran away and went into stealth. Came back to the remaining guard, sat down in front of him and had a late lunch, then killed him with a death attack.

Now, obviously any CRPG has limitations. I'd anticipate in a DM setting at least the remaining guard would've had the good sense to, I don't know, run away maybe? And, probably smoking a cigarrette isn't conducive to stealthiness. That's not my point though.

My question is: what is the justification for hide/move silently? A rogue/rouge with either high levels of hide and move silently or through use of prodiguous amounts of camoflauging make-up can stroll down a bright street lined with sharp-eared drow (eh, eh, sharp eared? oh, never mind)on either side and remain unobserved.

This is a tad silly. And I LOVE the stealth abilities. So, what is the justification? Is this ability of a high level rogue supposed to be some type of pseudo-magical ability? Does it work differently in a live game or is it still just a listen/spot check? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Basically, you make a Move Silently if you want to sneak up one someone, and they make an opposing Listen check. You score higher and they don't hear you, put simply.

If you want to use the Hide skill, you must generally have something to hide behind or in (rocks, a bush) or there must be some shadows available. You cannot simply 'Hide' in a middle of a street if that is what you are asking.
Though i'm pretty sure if it was a crowded street you could make a hide check to 'blend in with the crowd' sorta thing. The opposing npc or so makes a Spot check no negate this.

Obviously, there are ways to counter these apart from with Listen and Spot checks with each. For example, you can walk as silently as you like in front of a Guardsman, but he's still going to notice you. And even though you're a master at hiding, wearing metal boots on an iron floor isn't going to help you get away unnoticed.

I'm sure a DM could explain it in more detail.

[Edit] Obviously, you can take points in the Disguise skill to disguise yourself as you suggested. You can also buy face paint, disguise kits and the like. Or use a Change Self spell for example (which can give you bonus to Disguise skill).

 

So, in a live game, you have to hide behind something to, well, hide. There have to be shadows or something else to hide behind to remain hidden. Ok.

From CRPG's like BG2 and NWN you get the impression you can hide in the middle of the street in Athkatla at high noon. That's why I wondered if it was a pseudo-magical ability.

As far as the disguise kits - and here I thought that people were just making a mistake by spelling it rouge rather than rogue. In reality, they're always just referencing these make-up kit artists.

 

Note an important distinction between Invisibility and Stealth (ie Hiding in Shadows and Moving Silently): Being invisible is a state and, whether by spell, potion, or magical item, it is an induced state and requires no skill to maintain. Stealth reflects one's training in going unnoticed.

If someone is invisible, anyone looking upon that person will see what is behind him, as if he were not there, but it is only an illusion. Those not subject to illusions cannot be fooled. Similarly, if an invisible person passes through a field of high grass, onlookers would see the obvious parting and trampling of the grass in his wake.

Contrarily, when a character rolls to 'Hide in Shadows', he is making use of his skills to avoid detection. A rogue can hide in a crowd, natural cover, darkness (obviously), or any other feature of his surroundings(In the Underdark, most of its great expanse is in total darkness, and so the creatures that live there almost all have infravision. Those who understand this form of sight can exploit thermal 'shadows' to avoid detection by creatures with infravision).

Granted, a DM can rule when one can and cannot hide, but a skilled rogue would make a point of using every advantage he had in any given environment. In a game like NWN, however, such detailed development of stealth would detract from other areas of play. Leave it for 'Thief' and PnP.

 

In 3E, you have to have cover and/or concealment to be able to take the Hide action.

The cover must be 1/2 or greater (or just cover in 3.5E). You can't hide behind a sapling (unless you're of a very small size), but you can hide behind a big oak tree.

If it's just shadows you're hiding in, they have to be actually dark. You can't hide in a shadow in broad daylight, but you can hide in the shadows of a dark alley in the middle of the night. Don't think of it as "hide in shadows", but think of it as "sticking to the dark areas."

You can't hide when you are being observed, even casually. You can, however, make a diversion with the Bluff skill (this diversion needn't be a language-dependent effect, mind you). If the Bluff check succeeds (it's opposed by Sense Motive checks), you can hide at a penalty (-5 I think). Obviously you can hide when no one is noticing you.

Therefore, you can't walk in the middle of the street, and then suddenly hide unless you bluffed everyone within visual range and then somehow jumped behind a bunch of crates. In this case, you'd have to be a darn good Rogue(or Bard or Monk or Ranger) to pull this off. I guess what you could do, however, is hide from a specific person but not from other people (like hide from a guard 60 feet away in a big crowd).

I think it goes without saying that hiding or moving silently isn't a magical effect (you can hide in an Antimagic Field, for example).

What really bugs me is that Move Silently is only for moving. I would have liked to seen an Operate Silently skill instead, since you can make noise when only hiding (like hiding among a pile of weapons and armor. Oh well.

[ February 02, 2004, 03:03: Message edited by: Oaz ]

 

Hide actually seems like a pretty pointless skill to invest in for a rogue. It doesnt matter how good a check you have you can still only use it in places where any fool could hide. Of course it is more realistic than in CRPG's but I dunno if it is more fun. I once played a rogue with a killer hide check, it didnt get used once really, except to hide from a guard in a dark warehouse behind a crate, you dont need a +25 hide check to do that, I could do that to the same effect.

 

Basically, any CRPG is going to suffer as it doesn't have a human in control. a human can see a silly situation and say "no", but a computer just does as its told. In a CRPG you pass your hide check and the computer is told "character cannot be seen until he attacks". so you walk in front of the guard, in daylight, appear and hack his friend to death. computer is told "Guard will search for character for 1 min then return to guarding" you return later and kill the rest.

Okay, so rewind and play with a human DM. You pass your hide check in the alley, the DM says " okay your hiding in the alley". you say " I walk out of the alley and in front of the guard." the DM says. "okay you walk up in front of the guard. he looks you up and down, points his spear at you and growls " what you lookin' at, shorty?"."

If you do manage to sneak up behind a guard and slit his throat, even if you manage to escape and hide somewhere, the guard has just seen his friend brutally murdered, he is going to run as fast as he can and scream as loud as he can until he gets help, then return with as many large friends as possible to find and kill you.

Playing a CRPG is a fair approximation of a RPG, but the key word is "approximation". Skills and powers can do similar things, but complicated abilities that require roleplaying are never going to be implemented with 100% accuracy. Try encouraging a few friends to play a real RPG, and you'll find that of the infinite possibilities roleplaying offers, CRPG's are just a limited idea of what roleplaying can be.