Sorcerer vs Cleric/Mage

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I don't know if this has been discussed before but what class would be better overall?

The sorcerers advantage over a vanilla mage imo is his ability to cast for longer without needing rest.
His disadvantage though is that he get's a lot less spell choices per level and learns slowly plus no xp for memorising scrolls which can really add up to a lot.
The Sorcerers limited choice of spells is not all that big a disadvantage when he get's past level 18-19 as by that time he has both a lot more castings then the vanilla mage, plus he should be high enough level to already have most if not all the spells that are worth having, and there are LOT'S of useless or inferior mage spells that you almost never use.

The Cleric/Mage levels up slower but has a much larger variety of spell's and can probably do as much damage as a sorcerer of the same XP.
C/M is more useful party wise as he can heal and also has some nice Cleric HLA's
The Cleric spells have a larger amount of uses then the mage spell's and can be turned into a very deadly spell slinger at the sacrifice of party buffing and healing spells.

I know there's points I have not covered in my comparisions but I cant do ALL the work for ya

 

If you look at who is going to be more powerful in the long run, I think it's the Sorcerer. With all the HLA's the Sorcerer can cast every level 10 spell from memory and he can cast a lot of spells.

I never really liked clerics, but that's probably because I don't really know how to use them. I agree they can be useful when they have to cure something, or when you need to be buffed. I don't really see much advantage to a C/M though other than cleric contingencies...
Healing isn't all that usefull either since the only healing spell that is really worthwhile is Heal and you have to get into the heat of the battle to cast it on someone, which is not a good idea for your C/M.

Overall I'd say that the sorcerer is more powerful, but that the C/M might be more useful (more so if you play with a party).

 

The nice thing about a C/M is his ability to put on some decent armor and be a fairly efficient physical combatant once his mage spells run out. even if his strength is low, you can either use an enhancing item so he can wear the heavy armor or you can use one of the many clerical spells available to drop your AC and then enter combat. Once a sorceror has used up his spells, he is done for the day, really. No armor, pitiful weaponry selection, the worst possible THAC0, and very low HP make him a poor choice for any physical combat, be it ranged or melee.

 

If you're talking about HLAs then the cleric/mage will have nearly double the amount of the sorcerer - awesome!!!

 

I don't think the XP from scrolls is all that significant past the first few levels. There are what, maybe 20 spells per level? You get between 1,000 XP and 9,000 XP per scribed spell. So that's an average of 5,000 XP per spell. With 180 spells (approximately) at your disposal to memorize, you're talking about 900,000 XP, which, if divided among six party members is 150,000 XP each. So, after the first few levels, the XP for scrolls doesn't add up to all that much.

Despite this, I'd still say a cleric/mage multiclass is the much better option. Sure, you have to pre-select your spells, but an experienced player is going to know which spells he needs to memorize and which ones aren't worth it. Let's face it, at high levels you get a whole lot of spells, so having to pre-memorize isn't all that big of a deal, and some of the cleric HLA's easily outweigh this downside.

 

@Aldeth

I think that the arguement of knowing which spell to preselect would work for the sorcerer too. An experienced player knows what spells he or she is most effective at using. So the player can select which spells that will be used most often, and use those as the sorc spells.

I also generally have a full class or almost full class cleric in my party anyways, such as Amomen and Viconia. I would take the improved mage power over the mage/divine power anyday.

@Keldin

Why would you want to send a C/M into melee combat? To me that does sound like a outstanding idea. Even with cleric spells, you would just be fighting as a low level cleric. I would only do it if I was soloing and ran out of mage spells.

 

Which one is more powerful? Sorcerer. Because of his ability to cast more 9th and by extension 10th levels spells he outshines the mage completely, cleric doesnt even count when it comes to talking about power. For usefulness, thats all a matter of preference. I myself love to get to the point where my sorc can cast time stop, improved altric, unload 2 malisons and 9 chromatic orbs in less than 4 rounds and then wish back all my spells and get another time stop up before my time stop even cancels. I've gone through tob more often than not entirely in time stop for battles. But many people prefer M/C cause they actually like to use an entire party and melee. Its up to you really.

 

Read this to find out why the sorceror is the superior class.

 

When it comes to raw arcane power the Sorcerer is absolutely powerful but though Sorcerer is the strongest spellslinger there is, it's not strongest class in the game IMO.
Sorcerer VS M/C, the Sorcerer wins naturally. Nothing can beat his spell-offensive power, but the M/C is more useful by far, and is versatile enough to get through any battle much more easily than a Sorcerer can. An M/C can be anything from a heavy tanker, spellslinger, healer, and summoner.

I'll take my Blade against a Sorcerer any day, and unless one or both classes refuse to show themselves then the Blade will win by a longshot, simply because when magic fails the sorcerer is basically a sitting duck - but the Blade and M/C are not.

So it comes down to this: Where magic is effective, nothing beats the Sorcerer. Otherwise, the odds are against him.

 

@ Cyronic. That's a good sorcerer guide but all it focuses on is the sorcerer and B/C. It doesen't look at the Sorcerer and Cleric/Mage and compare the two of them together, the Cleric spells are more useful for a party in a melee and then there's the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of power which make the Cleric spells A LOT, more use.

The Sorcerers main spells usually consist of a few protections, summons, area damage spells and spells like Breach.
The Cleric/Mage In a party of three or four level's up quick enough as it is, and you only need three to four people in a party to be strong in Melee and both Divine and Arcane magic, so with that in mind a C/M is more use to a party then a sorcerer buffing wise.

One of my current parties so far is this.

Melee: My Blade, Jaheira and Aerie (later on when buffed up with Crom and FoA)

Divine: Aerie and Jaheira

Arcane: Imoen, Aerie and My Blade (mostly to dispel magic, stoneskin and mirror image)

And Imoen of course as the party thief.

Looking at this list all of them can cast Stone/Iron skin and other protections, anything spells dont cover there are items to cover up for, so It's quite possible to get through most major fights later on completly uninjured

Also another big advantage of this party is that it's small and will get to high levels quickly, and every single party member can excel in at least two different role's.

 

I would only send a C/M into melee if he had totally run out of all possibly useful spells. Of course, that takes a long time at high levels!

I was simply pointing out the fact that many spells run out after a time, but armor lasts forever!

 

The Cleric/Mage can match the sorcerer for spell power. You can have all the offensive spells from the mage side and all the defensive/buffing spells from the cleric side, plus the C/M can heal himself mid-battle as well.

A level 18 Sorcerer (3,000,000XP) can cast up to level 9 spells. The cleric/mage will be L14/14 and can cast level 7 priest spells and level 7 mage spells. Yes, this is behind the sorcerer on mage spells but you have all the really cool priest spells in your arsenal as well.

All the available HLAs, from both the Cleric and Mage are just awesome. Far more than the sorcerer can hope to obtain.

You both get an HLA at 3,000,000XP. But, by the time the sorcerer has gone up another ten levels (to gain another 10 HLAs) the cleric/mage has gained 9 cleric HLAs and 5 mage HLAs - think of all this Planetars and Devas you can summon.

The Cleric/Mage has far more choices for armour and weapons as well. Try elven chainmail, cool shield and some big hammer - cast some buffing spells and tensers and you will wreak havoc.

Not forgetting the improved HPs from the cleric side and the half-decent THAC0 of a cleric.

Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that contindencies and triggers can contain both mage and cleric spells for some fantastic combinations.

I believe what puts people off of using cleric/mages is Aerie. She can be really annoying and isn't a great advert for cleric/mages, but she can create some major havoc if handled correctly.

 

Still, a sorcerer can just cast time stop, improv. alcacity, and then whatever spells he needs to get the job done. I don't think a Deva or two can compare to multiple timestops and horrid wiltings. Also sorcerers can summon planetars.

 

Yes, but you have to get the time stop off first. Even then you have to get through all the defences.

 

Actually, the amount of XP you can get from scrolls is limited only by the amount of gold/scrolls you can collect. You can erase memorized spells and relearn them for additional experience.

There are also two bugs in the stores that allow for unlimited scrolls. In the Copper Coronet, after you finish the slavers quest, there are an unlimited number of Prismatic Spray scrolls available. In the Adventurer's Mart, after you return from the Underdark and can access the "special" wares, there are -- get this -- an unlimited number of Freedom scrolls (9,000 XP ea.) at an the unbelievable price of 370 gp/ea. if you have a 20 rep and high CHA (boosted, e.g., by spells, or ring of human influence, nymph cloak, blade of roses, etc.). Cheese? Perhaps. Limits on XP? None.

With a mage, a thief, a few potions of master thievery and no scrupples about how you collect money and scrolls, you can max out the XP of every character in your party almost as soon as you get out of Chateau Irenicus.

 

Personally I think high numbers of HLA's are wasted when u have two caster classes mc. First of all you cant cast as many of these hlas because ure levels behind a solo. So you might get planetar at 3000000, but you wont cast it for a hella long time.

The best class for hlas is F/T. All of the fighter theifs hlas are either passive and clicked once are useful. Or spells that get into your special abilities. Its much more useful to be able to get 5 spike traps and 5 greater whirlwinds then to get the ability to cast both deva and planetar.

 

With a party of 6, it's actually possible to get 3 million xp by the time you finish the Underdark.

I don't think that comparing levels with a solo to be very fair. Solo is actually not a very common way to play the game. It is common knowledge that a solo will be more powerful as an individual, but will get whooped on by a well handled party.

Now, onto the real question. I'd put my money onto the cleric/mage if handled well. Having a complete heal in a chain contigency turns the fight very fast. Pair that up with things like Death Ward, Free Action, Chaotic Commands, etc. and the sorc won't be able to get many spells off.

A well-handled sorcerer is certainly a potent class, but he lacks the versatility of the c/m (who can cast every spell the sorcerer can and then some).

 

My opinion is a bit biased, since I never play solo.

That being said, the Sorcerer is better than the C/M. The advantages you outlined are right on, and the disadvantage is negated by letting NPC's scribe scrolls.

In a party, unless you've got Edwin, you'll be the only single classed arcane spellcaster in the game. You'll be more powerful than any of the others. And if you really want a C/M in your party, pick up Aerie.

 

Sorcerers do seem much more potent than Mages, but there is only one but.. they can't Multi- or Dualclass to thief.

 

Mayfairy do you mean dual to a Mage or from a Mage? I've never heard of anyone dualing from a Mage and if there is someone reading this that has done it before it would be interesting to hear why.

[ December 05, 2003, 10:33: Message edited by: casey ]