Single Class Party

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Hello! I'm going to be playing through BGII/ToB with the difficult mods added on (ascension/tactics I guess).

I plan on having every one of the components installed for a quite hard game. I am not the most experienced player on earth, as I've only beaten the game twice.

So my plan is to use a party of six characters that I create.

My question is, what would be the most powerful party to create?

Important clause: I despise multiclass and dual class characters. I want only singleclass characters, although any kit is acceptable.

Additionally, please disregard considerations of locks/traps as I've disabled them, because I just find them tedious!

 

I play with single class parties most of the time, unless I am trying to reduce the amount of characters I'm playing, so lets see:

(In no particular order)
Dwarven vanilla fighter, tough with natural magic resistence
Human cleric for the healing
Halfling rogue (thiefs are good for more than traps/locks)
Elven vanilla mage(elf just because, mage because they can learn any spells
Ranger (with the archer kit)
Druid for the extra healing and other spells

Both your fighter and cleric can both tank, use your rogue for backstab and sneaky attacks, keep your mage and ranger in the back to thin the ranks. Your druid can either tank or long range depending on their rolls.

 

Cool ideas. I'm just going to leave this up for comment for a few days, then make the party based on everyone's collective opinion.

An idea, how does this sound...

Human Inquisitor - two handed sword and halberd
Elven Kensai - katana and warhammer
Dwarven Berserker - Axes and Flails
Half Elf Shapeshifter - spears and scimitars
Half Elf Sorcerer - staffs and slings
Half Elf Sorcerer - daggers and darts

Here I have three great melee guys, a priest who will have a powerful melee greater warewolf form, and two sorcerers, for obvious reasons.

I don't really see the need for a thief in my situation. As I said, I'm leaving out locks and traps, and to be honest I'm not much of a "sneak and backstab" type of person.

Any comments on weapon proficiencies?

Thanks everybody!

 

For weapons I try to keep more stars in less slots, I would rather them be good in a few weapons then OK in many(and as for role playing, the more you use a weapon the better you would get with it). I also like to put darts in my powerful fighters hands, they sting the enemy quite a bit before they get to the party. I like to go with flails for somebody because you can get the flail of ages pretty early without spending hard earned gold. I love any weapons that don't need amo, because I hate to remember to buy it.

 

Hey there, I can honestly say that I am an expert about Tactics/Ascension/Imp.Battles mods, so I want to help you out:

High level clerics are very useful, far more useful than a Shapeshifter, they have single most important spell for a cleric:Greater Restoration.

Greater Restoration is casted fast and it heals all of the party, instantly, fully, and even cures any bad effects, level drains etc. It is THE spell to turn the tide in battle all of a sudden. You WILL need it in toughest battles, trust me!

Plus turn undead is VERY useful against dangerous undead, there are some in ToB and with only turning and poof they are all gone.

So I don't like your Shapeshifter idea. Unless you have 'Rebalanced Shapeshifting'. That mod is horribly unbalanced, unlogical, NEVER use it!

To tell you the truth, arcane magic is the key of success in those hard mods. Your tanks SHOULD be able to cast Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Pfrom X type spells if they ever hope to survive the battles.

So I SERIOUSLY reccomend you have Multi-Class characters. They are far more versatile and powerful than pure kits, I tell you.

Pure kensai is fun. With GM in katanas AND warhammers, with true GM fix, dual wield CF+5 and Crom faeyr, you will do AWESOME damage. But keeping him alive may be tricky. Here are solutions:

*Cast Barkskin/Spirit Armor on him always
*HAve him cast Mirror Image from the shortsword Ilbratha, it is invaluable!
*Use and stack hardiness.

MC characters are very good. Why don'T you get a Ranger/Cleric. Benefits:

*Free dual-wield proficiency
*Charm animal (very useful in Imp. Irenicus Dungeon)
*ALL priest spells, packed together, both versatile druid and vital cleric spells.
*Specialisation in weapons.
*BOTH fighter and cleric HLAs.
*Can cast Ironskins, which is a must to survive, summon Elemental Princes, can do greater restoration, can charm animals, can turn undead, AND can get essential fighter HLAs!

Hmm two sorcerers. Why? Make them elven to have 19 DEX, and better immunities. Every little bonus helps. Being half-elf does not grant you many bonuses as elves. Do not get same spells ith them, I mean, ofcourse both will get the same essential spells BUT try to make them take different spells here and there. Or better, take a specialised mage instead of one, a Conjurer is nice! Or be a gnome illusionist as they have VERY GOOD saving throw bonuses, which will mean survival. versality is always good. Plus you need someone to scribe scrolls for XP.

Berserkers are neat as they have various immunities when berserk, BUT I think a MC fighter/mage will be much more useful. F/Ms are ultimate destruction force, they can cast a spell and then attack in the same round, and with tons of buffs/protections they do not die easily. Your berserker may be tough but he will die easily when all those Adamantite Golems/Pit Fiends descend upon him, whilst a F/M will be immune with PfromMW and Stoneskins, laughing away as he tears down them.

Pure thieves are weak. Multi him with a fighter, and he will rock! Specialisation, better HP, saving throws, better number of attacks, are all neat!

Use Any Item, cast Mislead from a scroll, sneak back, dual-wield, have imp.haste, activate Critical hit HLA, start backstabbing. 8 attacks/round, all are critical hits AND backstabs, doing insane damage!

Fighters will get spiffy HLAs like GWW, Deathblow, (you WILL need this when you encounter Improved mindFlayers, they are a real TERROR to behold.) Hardiness, while thief HLAs are either crap or cheesy.

WHY don't you want MC characters? It will be much more easy and fun with them. Your game though. Give us feedback OK?

 

Like silverstar said multi/dual is more powerful but since you seems fixed on single class, I would say replace either the berserker or kensai with a blade. A fighter who can cast protection from magical weapons and spell immunity is invaluable for some of the encounters and he's not a bad fighter by any means. I would also replace one of the sorc with a normal mage of some sort, a wild mage maybe ?

 

Well I'd be willing to try some multiclassing but to be honest I'm afraid that I won't gain any levels or have access to the cool HLA. Plus I'm unfamiliar with how to use SK to allow multiclassing with kits (like kensai/mage multiclass for example).

So what would ya'll recommend as the absolute power party with multiclassing allowed? Keep weapon profs. in mind also, please. With the mods installed I don't know which new great weapons might be available on the new encounters and such.

EDIT: Additionally, I'm unsure as to what sorts of arcane spells become useful with the hard mods attatched. I mean I'd imagine that a lot of the "improved" enemies will have ridiculous saves and resistances, so will arcane magic be useful only for buffing purposes?

[ February 08, 2006, 16:18: Message edited by: nataben1314 ]

 

Couple things...

Multiclass characters get a big advantage with their HLAs. It's their *total* experience that accounts for when they begin to get their HLAs. Pure classes begin getting HLAs at three million experience; multiclasses get them once they have 1.5 million in each class (with two classes) or 1 million (with three classes). And they get the HLA choices for both or all of their classes. (Ought to point out that none of that applies for dual class characters, though.)

Weapon proficiencies count for little; multiclass fighters can still specialise (two stars), and grandmastery is practically worthless. Dual class fighters can still take grandmastery, if you really want to. If you're not sure what new weapons will be available, just take proficiencies based on the good weapons you know exist from previous games (celestial fury, crom faeyr, flail of ages, carsomyr, etc).

Using kits with a multiclass is simple if you want to do it. Just open your game file in Shadowkeeper, click characteristics, click the 'kit' dropdown and select the kit you want, it'll be automatically applied to the appropriate class.

Edit: and no, low saving throws don't make magic useless. You should steer away from save-or-bust spells in the late game regardless, and perhaps toss a greater malison before you unleash your horrid wiltings and skull traps. With sequencers and contingencies you don't even have to worry about the damage being halved, since you can just bulldoze enemies with sheer quantity. And a lot of spells don't have saves, like death spell, which is brilliant for taking down summons and enemies of 8 HD or lower.

 

Multiclass dont need kits to be powerful, in fact adding kits would probably make them too powerful.
As mentioned you get HLA at exactly the same time as single class characters, that is at 3mil exp and by the end of the game you'll end up with more HLA than single class since you get abit more levelups.
With multiclass being a possibility theres countless of powerful combination. Here's one for example :

sorc - anything
inquisitor - carsomyr
f/t or f/m/t - some combination of long swords, scimitars, and katana probably due to backstab requirements.
m/c - anything
f/m - anything.
r/c - crom + foa of course, mace for undead.

 

So I've been thinking a bit about my party over breakfast

I've decided I'm willing to go the Multiclass route... here is something I came up with, with question marks around the areas I'm at a loss about.

elven kensai/mage: Obvious choice because everybody raves about these guys.

dwarven cleric/berserker: I've heard these were good characters, and with all the talk of cleric spells it seems a natural choice.

?race? ranger/cleric: Another one that everybody talks about. This gives me lots of divine spells between himself and the last cleric/berserker

?race? bounty hunter/mage: This one I just sortof came up with out of nowhere. It had occured to me that trap setting might be highly useful, and arcane spells of course. The only question whether a thief class is worth it for trap-setting only.

elven sorcerer: It seems like every party demands one of these, at least in the non-modded game. Is there effectiveness still high in my modded game?

no idea for a 6th character. blade perhaps??


This is just a rough outline of my ideas. Every single one of these guys is replaceable if you folks can come up with something better. I'm at a total loss as to what weapons to take. In fact, I'm pretty much clueless on everything. I just want to make sure this party is ultra-effective because I need all the help I can get with the mods!

 

You can use SK to kit your MC characters. Just edit the save game, and find KIT button in character screen, attach the kit you like. It is cheating, but you know.

Greater Malison is your friend. Love it. Add a few dooms (if you don'T have the fix they are stackable, a cleric/mage can unleash a GM and multiple dooms, then a nasty Finger of Death, which practically kills the target unless they make a save vs spells at -10 or more. Fun! FoD is extra nice as it already has -2 penalty. Slow, Chaos, and Symbol spells are all very potent as they give -4 penalty to saves, stick a GM first and enemies will have -8 to saving throw.

You will DEFINITELY need an Inquisitor. Inquisitors are VITAL to survive Impç Mages. Trust me. Imp. mages&liches are very nasty, you will be suprised how smart they act. Inquisitor is a good kit. Use it with Carsomyr+6.

Sorcerers are always effective if you do choose their spells right. If you do it wrong you are in trouble. Kensai/mage will be nice enough support caster.

Bounty Hunter's traps are all fun in high levels, they have MANY strategic uses, they maze, hold, poison people; but once you get trap HLAs, you won'T use the old crude traps at all, as HLA traps are VERY powerful and cheesy.

So your party:

Human Inquisitor(main wizard-slayer, his dispel ability is super useful and his True Sight is very convenient)

Proficiencies:
Two handed sword++
Two handed weapon++
Halberd++
Crossbow++

Half-Elven Kensai/Mage (you need 18 CON, 19 dex will do you no good since you won'T use ranged weapons at all.)

Proficiencies:
Katanas++
Scimitars++
Long Swords++
Hammers++ (late in gaMe when you have CF)
Two weapon fighting+++(start with at least two stars)

Dwarven Cleric/Berserker (tough guy with big HP, give him 19 CON, his saving throws will be superiour but he does not have Stoneskin so use hardiness and beef AC a lot!)

Proficiencies:
Flail/Morningstar++
Maces++
Slings++(there is one nice sling which adds STR damage bonus)
Sword and Shield++(you can'T dualwield or you will lose sling, this guy needs all AC possible)
Hammers (only if he will use the CF)

Half-elven ranger/cleric (I described above)

Elven Bounty Hunter/Mage (19 DEX will help GREATLY and you don't need 18 CON anyway)
(IMPORTANTut points into Detect Illusions skill, this skill is INVALUABLE in Tactics battles as toughest mages have SIivination+Abjuration, which makes them practically untouchable by spells!)

Proficiencies:

Dagger
Scimitar
Staff
anything you want.
Shortbow is required, there is one VERY good shortbow in Hell trials, if you have improved Wraith Sarevok component.

Elven sorcerer (19 DEX is nice to have, have highest WIS for wish spell)

Proficiencies:

Staff+
Dart+ (darts are great for mages as they have naturaş 3 attacks/round)
Then daggers, then slings, they don't make a huge difference though. Once you get SoM, stick to it!

Hope this helps. Why don'T you start your game right away and give us feedback? (yes I want to hear your screams for help!) (don'T let this fact discourage you!) (happy games! I am always here!)

Have fun!

 

EDIT: Silverstar posted while I was typing so some of the information he said is repeated.

Well, some of those classes you listed are impossible to get at all, and others are only available going to dual class route. Unless you're going to use shadow keeper or something to modify multi-classes.

This is a possible dual class but not a multi class, as you can't have a kit with a multi-class unless you use shadowkeeper. Thus, you would have to be human. You can be a regular fighter/mage though if you want the multi-class.

Again, because of kit restrictions on multi-classes, this one is also impossible. You can be a dwarven fighter/cleric, or you can start with a human berserker and dual class him to cleric. Note that with dual classes, you can only choose a kit for your first class, so you'd have to start as a berserker and then switch to cleric. (Although that's kind of moot, because you'd never want to start with a cleric and then dual him to fighter anyway.)

This one works as either a multi or dual class. In fact, I'd argue that the ranger/cleric multi class is among the most powerful multiclasses in the game. The only race that this works for is half-elf, so that makes the decision easy.

This works as a dual class, but not a multi-class (again, no kits in multi-classes). As such, the race has to be human. Regardless, I think a regular thief/mage multi-class will be more powerful. Once you start getting HLAs, the traps your thief gets will blow away the ones you get as a bounty hunter.

 

^Well I guess he clearly mentions that he intends to use SK to MC with kits. He is one bad boy, but he will play the cool mods for the FIRST time, you won'T believe what I did the first time around to get a meaning of the mods, no I won't tell.

Nataben1314, I hope you will find my last post above useful, it took too long to type it you know?

 

Silverstar... I don't think I could justifiably call your info useful... more like VITAL! Its a lot like air, without it I'll simply die. Thanks a bunch!

I do intend to use cheesy ol' SK to make me some multiclass kit characters. Once I survive with these characters I'll tone it down to something more legitimate for the next run!

So now it's off to character creation... I'll be sure to post updates here!

EDIT: One more question. As far as magic users go, are there any spells that I would normally consider useful (in the unmodded game) that are now useless with all the improved enemies?

EDIT2: Also, what sort of weapons might my ranger/cleric use?

 

Hmm tough question.

Chromatic Orb is next to useless against tactics enemies, that is for sure.

There are some spells that shine with Tactics, however:

Detect Invisibility, and low level illusion dealing spells are very useful against pesky Spirit Trolls, who are constantly invisible. (watch out!)

Glitterdust shines against mages with Imp. Invisibility and SIivination.

 

The most obvious choices that spring to mind immediately are Flail of the Ages, Crom Faeyr, Mace of Disruption, and Runehammer. Basically, the same stuff a cleric would use.

 

Oh no, oh no, you must use the Bounter Hunter/Mage!! Let me attempt an explanation at the awesome power these guys are capable of unleashing.

The primary argument people make against them is that their traps become superfluous when you get HLAs. This could not be farther from the truth; they synergize extremely well. It behooves one to know exactly how the maze trap works. First off, special traps can be thrown if you didn't know. So you can throw the trap right next to a mob from outside its sight range. Nice.

Furthermore, the maze from the trap ignores magic resistance and, since it auto-targets, Improved Invisibility cannot stop it either. So you throw this trap and everyone in the area is gone. So what do you do? Well, the possibilities are endless. How about you lay down a few normal traps? Hide in shadows and prepare to backstab maybe. Summon some fodder. Heal/buff your party. How about you put down a Time trap (hence how amazingly well these traps synergize)?

Another feature of the maze is that the higher-intelligence enemies reappear first. What does that mean? It means that the first enemy to reappear in any given party will likely be the mage, leaving him to deal with your entire party and your traps/prepearations alone. By time he's dead, the rest of the baddies should start showing up. You can just keep laying those traps in preperation for them. The maze trap provides perhaps the greatest level of control you will ever find in a character. I really can't say enough about this guy and he is definitely a boon for any tactics/ascension encounter.

Credit: most of this information came from Chris Lee's Thief guide. I highly suggest you read it if this at all interests you.

 

Alright so I have another question!

This is pretaining to SK. When I try to make my multiclass have a certain kit, they don't seem to gain the abilities of the kit. For example, I checked the "bounty hunter" kit, for my bounty hunter/mage, then went back into the game. I rested, then checked my special abilities tab and I wasn't allowed to set a special snare, as I should.

I checked the SK readme, and what it says is rather confusing to me. So I won't gain any of the kit abilities until I level up? What does that even mean? What about abilities that are "always with the character"? For example, if I were to make a fighter/beastmaster, what would the weapon situation be? Also, my character description doesn't note the kit. The character that I want to have as a kensai/mage only shows up as a fighter/mage on the character description.

I'm generally confused with this multiclassing kits on SK thing. I dont want to have my characters all wierd like missing some abilities and having some extra abilities and all that stuff. Also, will my characters gain the abilities their kit was supposed to gain in earlier levels??

As near as I can figure, SK just makes future levels be gained with the kit, but it doesn't do anything about previous levels. This confuses me.

I'm going to be trying to figure this out on my own, but if anybody can confirm how to have a multiclass kit character that is exactly as it should be (i.e. without more or less abilities/stats then it would normally have at that level)??

I'm sure this is rambling, but I'm too confused to articulate myself properly.

 

MC kits will never show up AFAIK.

To get your "back abilities", you need to create a separate character of that kit and immediately export it. Open up both characters with SK (or the one character and your save game if you've already started) and go to the "Affects" tab of both characters. Notice anything? The kit-created one will have all of the affects that your SKed multi should have. Just copy+paste the affects over to your MC character and save.

A bounty hunter's special snares can be added in the "Innate" tab.

 

Thanks, I believe I have it pretty much working.

I feel like such an ignoramus... I have this many questions BEFORE the game I bet you all can't wait until I actually get to playing!

Anyways, I finally got started, and after dinner and a bit of studying will begin the actual playing part.